First glider Nimbus 2 ?

czwartek, 7 stycznia 2021 oÂ*02:50:24 UTC+1 Andreas Maurer napisaÅ‚(a):
On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:38:34 -0800 (PST), Piotr Mis
wrote:

?roda, 6 stycznia 2021 o 08:39:02 UTC+1 Andreas Maurer napisa?(a):
On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 23:34:48 -0800 (PST), Surge
wrote:
Have you actually flown a Nimbus 2? I suggest you organise a test flight before making the purchase. Maybe you can organise a dual in something with an all flying elevator like a Janus first.
I would never lend my Numbus 2 to a pilot with so few hours. Never.

ok, so I understand that you consider a flight in Nimbus executed by a 70 hours pilot would be very dangerous to a both glider and pilot. But what exactly are the factors of that danger? is it just "no, because no" type of argumentation or do you mean any particular elements of flying technique / tactics which are neccessary to execute a short, safe flight in good conditions within a gliding range of the airfield, and which a-70-hour pilot cannot possibly have?
Well, under normal circmstances a Nimbus 2 is as harmless as any
ASK-21 (I only have some experience in the Numbus 2C).

But, given your limited experience with gliders that are very, very
easy to fly: You are, sorry to say that, not yet qualified to fly a
Nimbus 2.

Given a careful briefing and some additional training in something
similar (Janus, et cetera) you'll probably be able to fly it safely,
but I would never take the risk to lend ***my*** complex glider to
someone with your credentials showing up one afternoon.


One more advice:
Do not over-estimate the performance of an open class glider. I've
been flying one for ages (some kind of ASH-25, with much, much better
performance than a Nimbus 2), and the performance advantage over old
15m class (ASW-20, LS-3) is about 20 percent.

The Nimbus is much too light - to make it perform, you must fly it
with lots of water ballast. Always.
Without water ballast, the old 15m class is going to outperform a
Nimbus in anything but very slow straight flight or extremely weak
thermals - these situations make perhaps 5 percent of all flying.

Combine that with the fear of landing out (safe landing, disassembly
of a heavy, complex glider, big trailer) - and think twice about
buying something a lot easier to handle. Something you simply pull out
of the trailer, put the wings on and fly after 15 minutes.


Cheers
Andreas

Thanks Andreas, I am saving all remarks/advice/comments from all of you in a separate file to come back to them and re-read it if I actually buy that Nimbus (I am still weighing pros and cons, plus currently I need to wait until COVID travelling restrictions are lifted to be able to conclude the deal).
From yours and others' comments I conclude that in order to stay on the safe side I must give much consideration to flying conditions (no strong cross winds) and landing spots because of long landing roll. Since I am quite determined to refrain myself from any attempts of long distance xc flying in the first or two years (which I would want ta avoid in any type of glider, also 15m), or attempts of flying in strong cross wind, then I guess that with those two factors of danger ruled out (or at least reduced as much as possible) flying Nimbus should to be pretty harmless as you write.
Maybe it seems to make no sense to get Nimbus for near airfield flying, but I would rather get something which outsizes me a bit in the beginning and grow up to it gradually then getting any 15m of that age availabe. My budget is limited and that particular Nimbus seems to be a bargain, being in really good shape, having already had 3000h service life extension inspection with 2300 hours of flying till next inspection. Other 15m gliders of its age have usually aroun 500-100 hours left before costly 3000h inspection.
Question of hard rigging is of course an issue, but I am planning to keep it hangared for the season (one month = 23 EUR) with taking only wing tips off after flying.
Aside from rational arguments I got the similar feeling as I had buying my motorbike: Ducati Monster 1000 ie. Everyone was saying it was an old fashioned, dangerous, defective, inconvinient bike and a more modern Japanese machine would make much more sense. I agreed it shurely would. Then I bought Monster and I love it

best reg
Piotr

On Saturday, January 9, 2021 at 5:31:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
From yours and others' comments I conclude that in order to stay on the safe side I must give much consideration to flying conditions (no strong cross winds) and landing spots because of long landing roll. Since I am quite determined to refrain myself from any attempts of long distance xc flying in the first or two years (which I would want ta avoid in any type of glider, also 15m), or attempts of flying in strong cross wind, then I guess that with those two factors of danger ruled out (or at least reduced as much as possible) flying Nimbus should to be pretty harmless as you write.

best reg
Piotr

Hi Piotr,

I think I commented on this thread a couple of years back, but just to re-emphasize. If you are not completely comfortable flying and landing the glider in a wide range of conditions, then I think that itself answers your question about whether you are ready. As an instructor, I emphasize with every student that each flight could be an off-field landing. Not just tow emergencies, but mis-judging conditions, getting caught by a sudden weather change, etc. So, while you have the right attitude about wanting to be conservative in your initial cross-country approach, starting with the assumption that you will not land off-field is a bad idea.

Looking at the data from my club (a mid-sized club in the US), we have at least 2-3 off-airport landings each year NOT related to intentional XC flight. One example was a nice, summer day last year. The pilot flying his ASW-24 on a hot summer day was only 15 miles away at 2000M when a set of clouds suddenly turned into a thunderstorm with heavy rain. He ended up getting caught with the storm between him and the airport and had to make a very tricky off-airport landing only a mile away from the home airport. In another example, a pilot flying the "local ridge" ran into weakening conditions and made the conservative choice to land in a big field rather than to try a marginal glide to home.

There's a difference between price and value. Not everything that comes at a low price is a good value. At least think about that before you make the move.

Erik Mann (P3).

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 11:08:01 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:

There's a difference between price and value. Not everything that comes at a low price is a good value. At least think about that before you make the move.

Erik Mann (P3).

This is the dilemma I see so often with new glider pilots: finding an affordable first glass ship. It seems the recommendations are always to steer away from the cheaper first generation glass under $10k because they are "tricky to fly", and to leave them for more experienced pilots. The trouble is that flying club ships often limits your hours, as you have to share them with other club members, which takes longer to build up experience. Also, there are many clubs in the US that are on life-support financially, and club ships are often limited to the "venerable" 2-33 or other such low-performance aircraft, and really don't give any valuable experience in preparing towards transitioning to better glass ships. People often have to go out of their way to get experience even in ships like a G103. In today's economy, many new pilots can't cough up $15k to $25k for the "better" glass ships that would be more suitable as a first glass ship, so are forced to look at less expensive options, if they want to continue in the sport/hobby. I really wish more clubs had the resources to adequately transition folks from the low-performance trainers to the higher performance glass ships. Sure there are well-established clubs in locations that have the inventory and resources to do this, but these are getting fewer and farther between (at least in the US). My own experience has reflected this and has been very frustrating at times. I found a Bolkow Phoebus A1 at a very affordable price, and have managed to get it back in flying condition after a long time in a hanger attic. However, I've also been counselled that it is not suitable for a low-time pilot for many of the same reasons mentioned above for the Nimbus 2. The one club I was a member of refused to tow me in my Phoebus until I got checked out in it by an instructor, but the club instructors refused to help me with that, because they didn't have the experience themselves, and the club didn't have any appropriate club gliders that could be used for that. And there are no private members at the club who have private two-seaters that will provide adequate experience to transition into my Phoebus. I have to travel 4hrs or more just to find a club or glider operation in the first place. And then there is only a 2-33 or IS 28B Lark to rent, and am only able to fly for 1hr at the most. Landing out is strongly discouraged, so getting XC experience is basically not available there. The other place is almost 5hr drive. There I have access to a G103, but instructor and tow fees are significantly higher, and I can spent $1500 in 2 days easily. If I'm going to continue in this sport I need to be able to fly more frequently, and for much cheaper. It is difficult to build experience when you can only fly 3-4 times a year for 2-3 hrs at a time. And I know I'm not alone in this. If I were to follow the advise people are giving me about buying a "more suitable" first glass ship, I'd need to step away from soaring for probably 5-10 yrs while I save money to be able to afford one of the "more suitable" gliders.

You may ask "what about a more affordable low-performance glider like a 1-26 or K6 or K8?" The answer is, I want something I can fly cross country in.. Yes, these can be flown cross country, but you will get good at landing out due to their low glide ratio and poor wind penetration. Where I live, there are not a lot of good places to land out, due to small fenced farm fields, and LOTS of forests/mountains. So I would be mostly stuck flying around within gliding range of the airport. I'd get bored with that pretty quickly, wouldn't you?

So, in summary, I feel the OP's and other posters pain. Higher performance gliders under $10,000 are usually unsuitable for low-time glider pilots because they are too much to handle, and lower performance options typically don't have the XC potential of the higher performance options (at least when flying over "tiger country", or in my case, grizzly bear country), and don't offer much in transitioning to higher performance more appropriate options. And unless you have a well-established club with a large fleet/selection of training/transitional gliders, or one flush with capital that can purchase more appropriate XC training gliders, you are SOL (unless you can plop down $15k-$25k) on a more "appropriate" first glass ship. Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
scene.

I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.

What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.

How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?

Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
scene.

I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.

What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.

How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?

Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000.

"Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900).

Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 4:35:53 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations..


I'm completely sympathetic to that dilemma. I'm doing something about it in my club. Over the last 10 years we've upgraded from an all Schweizer-Iron to a "modern" (aka only 40 years old designs) fleet. We have a 2-33, three 1-26s, a 1-34, Pilatus, Grob Twin Astir, LS4, and LS3. Several of those ships came through club member donations. All of the last 3 were basket cases that we bought cheap or were donated. Weand spent hundreds of hours refinishing. Today, we have a reasonable fleet (by US standards at least). I have over 400 hours in personally on the refinish projects, and our total club effort is north of 1500 hours.

Anyway, not to contribute further to thread drift, but the solution is there in the form of going back to the way clubs were built in the last generation. Read Kai Gertsen's book sometime.

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 4:58:03 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 4:35:53 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

I'm completely sympathetic to that dilemma. I'm doing something about it in my club. Over the last 10 years we've upgraded from an all Schweizer-Iron to a "modern" (aka only 40 years old designs) fleet. We have a 2-33, three 1-26s, a 1-34, Pilatus, Grob Twin Astir, LS4, and LS3. Several of those ships came through club member donations. All of the last 3 were basket cases that we bought cheap or were donated. Weand spent hundreds of hours refinishing. Today, we have a reasonable fleet (by US standards at least). I have over 400 hours in personally on the refinish projects, and our total club effort is north of 1500 hours.

Anyway, not to contribute further to thread drift, but the solution is there in the form of going back to the way clubs were built in the last generation. Read Kai Gertsen's book sometime.

Hit post a bit prematurely. The other obvious option is a partnership. 2 folks have twice the buying power of 1. Yeah, there will be some conflicts, but you'll be surprised how many times one or the other partner has other obligations and the ship just sits, even on good days. When I've spent time in Europe, it seems like most ships are owned in partnerships..

P3

wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 oÂ*22:35:53 UTC+1 napisaÅ‚(a):
On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations..

Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
scene.

I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.

What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water..

How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?

Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000.

"Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900).

Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.

Hi Martin
thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic . My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club.
What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality.. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all...
Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks.
There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence.

After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging.. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:02:28 -0800, Piotr Mis wrote:

Hi Martin thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option
for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other
side of Atlantic .

Sure. That summary wasn't really for you, though I thought you'd probably
read it. About all we see in the UK in the way of eastern aircraft are
Juniors, Puchacz and Perkoz, (my club has all three types), a few Pirats
and PW-5s and maybe a Russia or two.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Wednesday, 13 January 2021 at 01:02:30 UTC+2, wrote:
wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 o 22:35:53 UTC+1 napisał(a):
On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
scene.

I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.

What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.

How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?

Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000.

"Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900).

Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.
Hi Martin
thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic . My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club.
What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all...
Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether.. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks.
There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence.

After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart

Piotr, buying your own glider is the best decision you can make in this sport. I have no doubt you can fly N2 safely, it just requires more discipline and respect than smaller gliders. If your options are N2 or nothing, go for N2.