First glider Nimbus 2 ?

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 11:08:01 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:

There's a difference between price and value. Not everything that comes at a low price is a good value. At least think about that before you make the move.

Erik Mann (P3).

This is the dilemma I see so often with new glider pilots: finding an affordable first glass ship. It seems the recommendations are always to steer away from the cheaper first generation glass under $10k because they are "tricky to fly", and to leave them for more experienced pilots. The trouble is that flying club ships often limits your hours, as you have to share them with other club members, which takes longer to build up experience. Also, there are many clubs in the US that are on life-support financially, and club ships are often limited to the "venerable" 2-33 or other such low-performance aircraft, and really don't give any valuable experience in preparing towards transitioning to better glass ships. People often have to go out of their way to get experience even in ships like a G103. In today's economy, many new pilots can't cough up $15k to $25k for the "better" glass ships that would be more suitable as a first glass ship, so are forced to look at less expensive options, if they want to continue in the sport/hobby. I really wish more clubs had the resources to adequately transition folks from the low-performance trainers to the higher performance glass ships. Sure there are well-established clubs in locations that have the inventory and resources to do this, but these are getting fewer and farther between (at least in the US). My own experience has reflected this and has been very frustrating at times. I found a Bolkow Phoebus A1 at a very affordable price, and have managed to get it back in flying condition after a long time in a hanger attic. However, I've also been counselled that it is not suitable for a low-time pilot for many of the same reasons mentioned above for the Nimbus 2. The one club I was a member of refused to tow me in my Phoebus until I got checked out in it by an instructor, but the club instructors refused to help me with that, because they didn't have the experience themselves, and the club didn't have any appropriate club gliders that could be used for that. And there are no private members at the club who have private two-seaters that will provide adequate experience to transition into my Phoebus. I have to travel 4hrs or more just to find a club or glider operation in the first place. And then there is only a 2-33 or IS 28B Lark to rent, and am only able to fly for 1hr at the most. Landing out is strongly discouraged, so getting XC experience is basically not available there. The other place is almost 5hr drive. There I have access to a G103, but instructor and tow fees are significantly higher, and I can spent $1500 in 2 days easily. If I'm going to continue in this sport I need to be able to fly more frequently, and for much cheaper. It is difficult to build experience when you can only fly 3-4 times a year for 2-3 hrs at a time. And I know I'm not alone in this. If I were to follow the advise people are giving me about buying a "more suitable" first glass ship, I'd need to step away from soaring for probably 5-10 yrs while I save money to be able to afford one of the "more suitable" gliders.

You may ask "what about a more affordable low-performance glider like a 1-26 or K6 or K8?" The answer is, I want something I can fly cross country in.. Yes, these can be flown cross country, but you will get good at landing out due to their low glide ratio and poor wind penetration. Where I live, there are not a lot of good places to land out, due to small fenced farm fields, and LOTS of forests/mountains. So I would be mostly stuck flying around within gliding range of the airport. I'd get bored with that pretty quickly, wouldn't you?

So, in summary, I feel the OP's and other posters pain. Higher performance gliders under $10,000 are usually unsuitable for low-time glider pilots because they are too much to handle, and lower performance options typically don't have the XC potential of the higher performance options (at least when flying over "tiger country", or in my case, grizzly bear country), and don't offer much in transitioning to higher performance more appropriate options. And unless you have a well-established club with a large fleet/selection of training/transitional gliders, or one flush with capital that can purchase more appropriate XC training gliders, you are SOL (unless you can plop down $15k-$25k) on a more "appropriate" first glass ship. Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
scene.

I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.

What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.

How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?

Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
scene.

I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.

What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.

How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?

Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000.

"Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900).

Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 4:35:53 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations..


I'm completely sympathetic to that dilemma. I'm doing something about it in my club. Over the last 10 years we've upgraded from an all Schweizer-Iron to a "modern" (aka only 40 years old designs) fleet. We have a 2-33, three 1-26s, a 1-34, Pilatus, Grob Twin Astir, LS4, and LS3. Several of those ships came through club member donations. All of the last 3 were basket cases that we bought cheap or were donated. Weand spent hundreds of hours refinishing. Today, we have a reasonable fleet (by US standards at least). I have over 400 hours in personally on the refinish projects, and our total club effort is north of 1500 hours.

Anyway, not to contribute further to thread drift, but the solution is there in the form of going back to the way clubs were built in the last generation. Read Kai Gertsen's book sometime.

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 4:58:03 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 4:35:53 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

I'm completely sympathetic to that dilemma. I'm doing something about it in my club. Over the last 10 years we've upgraded from an all Schweizer-Iron to a "modern" (aka only 40 years old designs) fleet. We have a 2-33, three 1-26s, a 1-34, Pilatus, Grob Twin Astir, LS4, and LS3. Several of those ships came through club member donations. All of the last 3 were basket cases that we bought cheap or were donated. Weand spent hundreds of hours refinishing. Today, we have a reasonable fleet (by US standards at least). I have over 400 hours in personally on the refinish projects, and our total club effort is north of 1500 hours.

Anyway, not to contribute further to thread drift, but the solution is there in the form of going back to the way clubs were built in the last generation. Read Kai Gertsen's book sometime.

Hit post a bit prematurely. The other obvious option is a partnership. 2 folks have twice the buying power of 1. Yeah, there will be some conflicts, but you'll be surprised how many times one or the other partner has other obligations and the ship just sits, even on good days. When I've spent time in Europe, it seems like most ships are owned in partnerships..

P3

wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 oÂ*22:35:53 UTC+1 napisaÅ‚(a):
On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations..

Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
scene.

I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.

What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water..

How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?

Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000.

"Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900).

Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.

Hi Martin
thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic . My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club.
What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality.. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all...
Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks.
There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence.

After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging.. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:02:28 -0800, Piotr Mis wrote:

Hi Martin thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option
for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other
side of Atlantic .

Sure. That summary wasn't really for you, though I thought you'd probably
read it. About all we see in the UK in the way of eastern aircraft are
Juniors, Puchacz and Perkoz, (my club has all three types), a few Pirats
and PW-5s and maybe a Russia or two.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Piotr-

It appears you have learned the most important thing: You get good judgment by surviving bad judgment.

Your life experience with other "risky" activities shows that you most definitely have the maturity and experience to take a chance with an older high performance glider. Whether the Nimbus 2 is the right choice, I cannot say, but considering your willingness to look to others for advice, and your obvious willingness to actually LISTEN to that advice demonstrates that you aren't the type to just pitch your testicles out in front of the plane and try to catch them before they hit the ground.

Do some more research, talk to others and don't take any chances in the early stages of learning to fly whatever you buy. No nasty or questionable weather conditions, no charging off from the field on XC flights until you are completely comfortable landing at your home airstrip in a variety of conditions. Experiment (slowly) with high approaches, low approaches, extended patterns, abbreviated patterns, vary your approach speeds to determine your touchdown and rollout characteristics. In short, practice what it takes to deal with an off field landing before you HAVE to try one.

I say buy the thing. Inspect it carefully, get completely familiar with the cockpit and the controls and be really conservative in the first flights. And in all the subsequent flights, for that matter. Have fun, and remember that the one of the biggest rewards in aviation is flying as long as you can without anyone getting to say, "I told you so."

On Wednesday, 13 January 2021 at 01:02:30 UTC+2, wrote:
wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 o 22:35:53 UTC+1 napisał(a):
On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
scene.

I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.

What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.

How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?

Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000.

"Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900).

Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.
Hi Martin
thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic . My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club.
What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all...
Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether.. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks.
There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence.

After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart

Piotr, buying your own glider is the best decision you can make in this sport. I have no doubt you can fly N2 safely, it just requires more discipline and respect than smaller gliders. If your options are N2 or nothing, go for N2.

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 5:02:30 PM UTC-6, wrote:
wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 o 22:35:53 UTC+1 napisał(a):
On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
scene.

I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.

What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.

How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?

Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000.

"Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900).

Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.
Hi Martin
thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic . My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club.
What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all...
Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether.. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks.
There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence.

After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart

On that budget the obvious choice is partnership, not Nimbus 2. And in my opinion the only option if you want a 38:1 or better glider. That's what I did when I was in that situation, purchasing a benign flying good performing sailplane and it worked out great. A few years later I purchased my partners portion and owned the glider outright. A great path to ownership. Then a few years after that with over 1000 hours I upgraded to a higher performance, more complicated glider.