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wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 oÂ*22:35:53 UTC+1 napisaÅ‚(a):
On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote: Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.. Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club scene. I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years. What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.. How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond? Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices. -- -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000. "Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900). Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA. Hi Martin thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic ![]() My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club. What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality.. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all... Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks. There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence. After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging.. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart |
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On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:02:28 -0800, Piotr Mis wrote:
Hi Martin thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic ![]() Sure. That summary wasn't really for you, though I thought you'd probably read it. About all we see in the UK in the way of eastern aircraft are Juniors, Puchacz and Perkoz, (my club has all three types), a few Pirats and PW-5s and maybe a Russia or two. -- -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org |
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Piotr-
It appears you have learned the most important thing: You get good judgment by surviving bad judgment. Your life experience with other "risky" activities shows that you most definitely have the maturity and experience to take a chance with an older high performance glider. Whether the Nimbus 2 is the right choice, I cannot say, but considering your willingness to look to others for advice, and your obvious willingness to actually LISTEN to that advice demonstrates that you aren't the type to just pitch your testicles out in front of the plane and try to catch them before they hit the ground. Do some more research, talk to others and don't take any chances in the early stages of learning to fly whatever you buy. No nasty or questionable weather conditions, no charging off from the field on XC flights until you are completely comfortable landing at your home airstrip in a variety of conditions. Experiment (slowly) with high approaches, low approaches, extended patterns, abbreviated patterns, vary your approach speeds to determine your touchdown and rollout characteristics. In short, practice what it takes to deal with an off field landing before you HAVE to try one. I say buy the thing. Inspect it carefully, get completely familiar with the cockpit and the controls and be really conservative in the first flights. And in all the subsequent flights, for that matter. Have fun, and remember that the one of the biggest rewards in aviation is flying as long as you can without anyone getting to say, "I told you so." |
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On Wednesday, 13 January 2021 at 01:02:30 UTC+2, wrote:
wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 o 22:35:53 UTC+1 napisał(a): On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote: Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations. Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club scene. I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years. What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water. How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond? Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices. -- -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000. "Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900). Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA. Hi Martin thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic ![]() My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club. What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all... Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether.. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks. There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence. After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart Piotr, buying your own glider is the best decision you can make in this sport. I have no doubt you can fly N2 safely, it just requires more discipline and respect than smaller gliders. If your options are N2 or nothing, go for N2. |
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On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 5:02:30 PM UTC-6, wrote:
wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 o 22:35:53 UTC+1 napisał(a): On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote: Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations. Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club scene. I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years. What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water. How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond? Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices. -- -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000. "Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900). Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA. Hi Martin thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic ![]() My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club. What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all... Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether.. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks. There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence. After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart On that budget the obvious choice is partnership, not Nimbus 2. And in my opinion the only option if you want a 38:1 or better glider. That's what I did when I was in that situation, purchasing a benign flying good performing sailplane and it worked out great. A few years later I purchased my partners portion and owned the glider outright. A great path to ownership. Then a few years after that with over 1000 hours I upgraded to a higher performance, more complicated glider. |
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On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 5:02:30 PM UTC-6, wrote:
wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 o 22:35:53 UTC+1 napisał(a): On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote: Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations. Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club scene. I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years. What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water. How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond? Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices. -- -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000. "Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900). Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA. Hi Martin thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic ![]() My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club. What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all... Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether.. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks. There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence. After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart Also..., I'm starting to see some red flags. I went to the classifieds you pointed to as a source and saw an apparently completely suitable well taken care of DG-100. Have you looked/inquired about at that glider? Seems a major red flag to me that you seem to have narrowed your "options" to the Nimbus 2 when a completely suitable glider that matches your skill level exactly is available. Are you sure your Nimbus decision isn't about something else? And you've never replied what your instructor recommendation is in this regard. Something is wrong. |
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Does anybody remember Lenny The Lurker......?
Boggs |
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On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 11:29:07 -0800, Waveguru wrote:
Does anybody remember Lenny The Lurker......? Yep, but not exactly what glider he fancied. SGS 1.26? That WAS a long time ago! -- -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org |
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On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:02:28 -0800 (PST), Piotr Mis
wrote: Hi Martin thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic ![]() My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. Hi Piotr, plenty of really nice gliders in your price range on segelflug.de. Think twice about an ASW-15, DG-100G, LS-1, and Standard Cirrus. Or treat yourself to an Astir and have plenty of money left for a lot of flying. I'd dare to predict that one of those will be lot more fun in the long ruin, and all of these gliders have one huge advantege: They can be sold easily if you should decide to upgrade in the future. Cheers Andreas p.s. I'm from Germany, so, if you need some advice or help, feel free to email me. |
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On 1/14/21 5:20 AM, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:02:28 -0800 (PST), Piotr Mis wrote: Hi Martin thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic ![]() My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. Hi Piotr, plenty of really nice gliders in your price range on segelflug.de. Think twice about an ASW-15, DG-100G, LS-1, and Standard Cirrus. Or treat yourself to an Astir and have plenty of money left for a lot of flying. I'd dare to predict that one of those will be lot more fun in the long ruin, and all of these gliders have one huge advantege: They can be sold easily if you should decide to upgrade in the future. Another huge advantage, is they don't have that all-flying tail, which was quickly designed out of the Nimbus line, for good reason. |
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