Your Opinion Would Be Appreciated

On 2/15/2021 6:40 PM, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:31:18 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
Somewhat outdated panel.
A pure glider, no sustainer.
Fabric interior and not leather.
Clear canopy and not tinted.
I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.

I have a 48 year old glider that has gelcoat and still looks nice. A nice creamy white and no crazing or cracks.
If one makes a requirement of only a painted glider there are very few to select from.
UH


It seems that a lot of old (35-45 years) gliders have had the gel coat
sanded and painted (10-20 years ago). How do they hold up after that?
Does it depend on the condition of the gelcoat before the painting? (If
it was in great condition, they wouldn't have painted it, eh?) How
should such a painted-over-gelcoat glider be treated to make that sort
of finish last?

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 7:16:53 PM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
On 2/15/2021 6:40 PM, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:31:18 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
Somewhat outdated panel.
A pure glider, no sustainer.
Fabric interior and not leather.
Clear canopy and not tinted.
I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.

I have a 48 year old glider that has gelcoat and still looks nice. A nice creamy white and no crazing or cracks.
If one makes a requirement of only a painted glider there are very few to select from.
UH

It seems that a lot of old (35-45 years) gliders have had the gel coat
sanded and painted (10-20 years ago). How do they hold up after that?
Does it depend on the condition of the gelcoat before the painting? (If
it was in great condition, they wouldn't have painted it, eh?) How
should such a painted-over-gelcoat glider be treated to make that sort
of finish last?

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 7:16:53 PM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
On 2/15/2021 6:40 PM, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:31:18 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
Somewhat outdated panel.
A pure glider, no sustainer.
Fabric interior and not leather.
Clear canopy and not tinted.
I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.

I have a 48 year old glider that has gelcoat and still looks nice. A nice creamy white and no crazing or cracks.
If one makes a requirement of only a painted glider there are very few to select from.
UH

It seems that a lot of old (35-45 years) gliders have had the gel coat
sanded and painted (10-20 years ago). How do they hold up after that?
Does it depend on the condition of the gelcoat before the painting? (If
it was in great condition, they wouldn't have painted it, eh?) How
should such a painted-over-gelcoat glider be treated to make that sort
of finish last?

You do not paint over gelcoat. You remove it and start from the bare airframe.

Mike

On Tuesday, 16 February 2021 at 08:01:34 UTC+2, Mike Carris wrote:
You do not paint over gelcoat. You remove it and start from the bare airframe.

Mike

I've never seen a painted glider that did not have gelcoat below the paint. New gliders with paint = gel coat is added to the moulds. Refinished gliders = gel coat usually sanded down but still there.

No use comparing 50 years old gel coat gliders to modern gliders with T35 crap that lasts 10 years before cracking.

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 2:30:51 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 February 2021 at 08:01:34 UTC+2, Mike Carris wrote:
You do not paint over gelcoat. You remove it and start from the bare airframe.

Mike
I've never seen a painted glider that did not have gelcoat below the paint. New gliders with paint = gel coat is added to the moulds. Refinished gliders = gel coat usually sanded down but still there.

No use comparing 50 years old gel coat gliders to modern gliders with T35 crap that lasts 10 years before cracking.

I can show you an LS3A that was painted over the gel, it is now totally in immediate need of a complete strip and build up. we plan on refinishing it very soon. The paint and gel on this ship seems to remove much easier than any others that I have removed.

In 2006, Bob Lacovara gave a presentation at the SSA Convention in Ontario, CA about gel coat and refinishing. He basically said that a good refinishing job will involve removing all the gel coat down to the composite substrate (but not getting into the substrate AT ALL!) if the gel coat exhibits crazing or cracks. Just sanding to a smooth finish and then applying a top coat of filler, new gel coat or paint will allow the cracks to manifest themselves rather quickly. He also said that the wide disparity in the quality of a gel coat finish on older gliders was traced to the glider manufacturers' process of applying gel coat into the mold and the time that lapsed between the application and actually laying in the first composite layer. In the early days of composite manufacturing, it was thought that the gel coat could go as much as a couple of days before the composites had to be laid over the uncured gel coat. After examining records from several manufacturers, it was discovered that a gel coat surface that had no more than an hour of exposure to the air before being sealed by laying in the composite skin and wing structures showed little or no deterioration, cracking or crazing even after a couple of decades, whereas gel coat that was applied and exposed to the air for more than four hours (and sometimes overnight or even longer) exhibited various degrees of crazing and cracking over time. Mr. Lacovara also stated that there have been many different types of gel coat over the years, and some are better than others. He also stated that the boating industry uses far superior coatings today that are pretty much unavailable to the sailplane industry, simply because glider manufacturing is so tiny compared to the boating world. He estimated that ALL the glider manufacturers in the world would total less than ten percent of the capacity of even the smallest boat manufacturer. At the time of his presentation, Bob was the Secretary of the American Composites Manufacturing Association and had access to a great deal of information on composite manufacturing worldwide.

George Moffatt was quoted as saying that, "Glider designers, when plied with enough drinks, will eventually admit that there are good ships and bad ships from the same molds."