The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 10:33:06 UTC, wrote:
While it may be the case that a volunteer/club model keeps costs low while gliding continues to use 1950's infrastructure and methods, this will not necessarily be the case if/when we begin to adopt alternative technologies at scale.

For a typical winch launch you need as a minimum:
1. A wing runner
2. A signaller
3. A winch driver
4. A recovery driver to fetch the glider when it lands and bring it back to the launch point

None of these are required for self-launching.
Furthermore, turnaround time will be faster with a powered glider in part because it can taxi under its own power.

We need to adopt self-launching with slot booking, as power has been doing since the beginning.

Gliding isn't in decline because it's becoming too expensive. It is in decline because it does not cater to the needs and expectations of modern society. I will say again: fewer people these days are willing to stand around on an airfield for an entire day for perhaps 20 mins in the air.
That's the problem...

People have a range of interests and what they do in gliding, instructing, tugs, local soaring, decent cross countries, and you still haven't really elaborated on why you think this 20 minute flight might be a big ambition for a significant proportion. OK for you if that's what you want, but even some early solos still hope they might get an hour and a bit.

Nobody is stopping you doing this for yourself. Several clubs have some self-launching gliders. If you turn up on the potential best day of the year, and there's a queue of 100+ gliders waiting for the first wispy cu to appear before they all go, some on badge or tecord attempts, nobody will object to you going to the front and do your flight first. If launching is already in progress when you turn up, take your place in the queue, or it might fit in ok to let you go from alongside

Even if a club had 100 gliders that are all self-launching you might still have queue issues if you want to be there only an hour predefined by your booking several days earlier, compared to the people rigging at 8 am on a 750 km day. Note that the keen local soarers and trainees in two seaters aren't excluded on those days, they get their flights too.

On less busy days, it wont be a problem for you. But believe it or not, and perhaps you won't, even from early on, more people want to fly on the nice days. Your suggestions don't seem to take much account of that variability of demand.

Regretfully you seem to have misunderstood what has been said.

Nobody is suggesting that standing around on an airfield all day for a 20min flight is an ambition!

The idea is that fewer people would be willing to do this and as such gliding, in its current form, does not satisfy the demands of modern society.

On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 2:15:45 PM UTC, andy l wrote:
On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 10:33:06 UTC, wrote:
While it may be the case that a volunteer/club model keeps costs low while gliding continues to use 1950's infrastructure and methods, this will not necessarily be the case if/when we begin to adopt alternative technologies at scale.

For a typical winch launch you need as a minimum:
1. A wing runner
2. A signaller
3. A winch driver
4. A recovery driver to fetch the glider when it lands and bring it back to the launch point

None of these are required for self-launching.
Furthermore, turnaround time will be faster with a powered glider in part because it can taxi under its own power.

We need to adopt self-launching with slot booking, as power has been doing since the beginning.

Gliding isn't in decline because it's becoming too expensive. It is in decline because it does not cater to the needs and expectations of modern society. I will say again: fewer people these days are willing to stand around on an airfield for an entire day for perhaps 20 mins in the air.
That's the problem...

People have a range of interests and what they do in gliding, instructing, tugs, local soaring, decent cross countries, and you still haven't really elaborated on why you think this 20 minute flight might be a big ambition for a significant proportion. OK for you if that's what you want, but even some early solos still hope they might get an hour and a bit.

Nobody is stopping you doing this for yourself. Several clubs have some self-launching gliders. If you turn up on the potential best day of the year, and there's a queue of 100+ gliders waiting for the first wispy cu to appear before they all go, some on badge or tecord attempts, nobody will object to you going to the front and do your flight first. If launching is already in progress when you turn up, take your place in the queue, or it might fit in ok to let you go from alongside

Even if a club had 100 gliders that are all self-launching you might still have queue issues if you want to be there only an hour predefined by your booking several days earlier, compared to the people rigging at 8 am on a 750 km day. Note that the keen local soarers and trainees in two seaters aren't excluded on those days, they get their flights too.

On less busy days, it wont be a problem for you. But believe it or not, and perhaps you won't, even from early on, more people want to fly on the nice days. Your suggestions don't seem to take much account of that variability of demand.

On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 14:38:06 UTC, wrote:
Regretfully you seem to have misunderstood what has been said.

Nobody is suggesting that standing around on an airfield all day for a 20min flight is an ambition!

The idea is that fewer people would be willing to do this and as such gliding, in its current form, does not satisfy the demands of modern society.

I can see what you've said, more or less the same each time.

I'm describing the way things are, including that demand varies with the weather, and that except at the peak launching time on the busiest days they don't actually impede your wish to do things your own way, either individually or with a group of similar thinkers.

I just think yours might be a smaller market.

I am afraid that I have no idea what your point is, or how it would fit into a discussion about the decline of gliding.
As I see it, everybody has their own individual goals within gliding, yes. I'm just not sure how this is relevant to the discussion.

On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 3:13:47 PM UTC, andy l wrote:
On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 14:38:06 UTC, wrote:
Regretfully you seem to have misunderstood what has been said.

Nobody is suggesting that standing around on an airfield all day for a 20min flight is an ambition!

The idea is that fewer people would be willing to do this and as such gliding, in its current form, does not satisfy the demands of modern society..

I can see what you've said, more or less the same each time.

I'm describing the way things are, including that demand varies with the weather, and that except at the peak launching time on the busiest days they don't actually impede your wish to do things your own way, either individually or with a group of similar thinkers.

I just think yours might be a smaller market.

OK- my thoughts on gliding's decline:

1-Current pilots are getting older and eventually quitting. It happens in every other sport too, and we can't really do anything about it. Viagra doesn't help in this case.
2-New participants are often discouraged by the seemingly endless process of, first, learning to fly and then learning to soar. Exceptions can be made for either pilots who are transitioning from powered aircraft (although they often keep fumbling around looking for the throttle) or pilots of other soaring aircraft (hang gliders, paragliders) who know how to find and work lift but don't know what to do with their feet. (That was me. "Running" on the rudder pedals on touchdown caused the Instructor in the back to emit loud noises.)
3-Learning can be extremely time consuming and stretch out forever. The Albuquerque Soaring Club only offers instruction one day a week, so if there are multiple students, only one or two flights per lesson might be possible. This means it could take MONTHS before getting to solo. And switching duty Instructors every week doesn't help.
4-Commercial instruction can be tailored to the student's schedule, needs and budget, but is often too expensive for younger participants. Older ones, too, but more discretionary money is generally found with more mature individuals
5-Equipment is expensive. Unless the local club or FBO has a decent fleet, you are stuck with a partnership and/or less desirable aircraft. Once again, time, opportunity and demand seem to conspire to reduce the availability of shared equipment, especially during the best soaring conditions.

I am sure there are many other reasons, but these occurred to me first. I also saw the same things at the end of my 28 years in hang gliding as I was transitioning into gliders. Hang gliding has the same problems.

On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 8:08:18 AM UTC-8, Mark Mocho wrote:
OK- my thoughts on gliding's decline:

1-Current pilots are getting older and eventually quitting. It happens in every other sport too, and we can't really do anything about it. Viagra doesn't help in this case.
2-New participants are often discouraged by the seemingly endless process of, first, learning to fly and then learning to soar. Exceptions can be made for either pilots who are transitioning from powered aircraft (although they often keep fumbling around looking for the throttle) or pilots of other soaring aircraft (hang gliders, paragliders) who know how to find and work lift but don't know what to do with their feet. (That was me. "Running" on the rudder pedals on touchdown caused the Instructor in the back to emit loud noises.)
3-Learning can be extremely time consuming and stretch out forever. The Albuquerque Soaring Club only offers instruction one day a week, so if there are multiple students, only one or two flights per lesson might be possible. This means it could take MONTHS before getting to solo. And switching duty Instructors every week doesn't help.
4-Commercial instruction can be tailored to the student's schedule, needs and budget, but is often too expensive for younger participants. Older ones, too, but more discretionary money is generally found with more mature individuals
5-Equipment is expensive. Unless the local club or FBO has a decent fleet, you are stuck with a partnership and/or less desirable aircraft. Once again, time, opportunity and demand seem to conspire to reduce the availability of shared equipment, especially during the best soaring conditions.

I am sure there are many other reasons, but these occurred to me first. I also saw the same things at the end of my 28 years in hang gliding as I was transitioning into gliders. Hang gliding has the same problems.

A welcome advancement unavailable when I was learning is instruction using flight simulators such as Condor. Scott Manley has been doing this successfully for years (https://glidercfi.com/author/smanley/).

Tom

One other possible reason for a decline in new students in the US is the rather common scenario of getting somebody interested in the sport, telling them all about the great cross country flights we make and showing them the modern crop of high-performance aircraft we fly. They get excited about the concept and commit to taking lessons. Then, the club or FBO tries to stick them in a Schweizer 2-33 and they back out. I've known several folks who refused to take lessons in something that looks like Fred Flintstone built it. Fortunately, they went over to the commercial operator and started in a Grob 103. Better, but still not a Duo Discus.

One guy commented that it was a typical "Bait and Switch" ploy. He was laughing, but he was also serious. I totally understood. I did the same thing when i took lessons in 1999 from Sundance Aviation in Moriarty, NM. I refused to get in a 2-33 until the Albuquerque Soaring Club insisted I get checked out in it before I could fly their G-103, an aircraft I had flown 52 times and logged over 40 hours in (including initial training flights and a lot of pattern tows.) So, I am stuck with three flights in the 2-33 in my logbook. I was hoping I could avoid ever sitting in one.

fredag den 12. marts 2021 kl. 15.15.45 UTC+1 skrev andy l:
On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 10:33:06 UTC, wrote:
While it may be the case that a volunteer/club model keeps costs low while gliding continues to use 1950's infrastructure and methods, this will not necessarily be the case if/when we begin to adopt alternative technologies at scale.

For a typical winch launch you need as a minimum:
1. A wing runner
2. A signaller
3. A winch driver
4. A recovery driver to fetch the glider when it lands and bring it back to the launch point

None of these are required for self-launching.
Furthermore, turnaround time will be faster with a powered glider in part because it can taxi under its own power.

We need to adopt self-launching with slot booking, as power has been doing since the beginning.

Gliding isn't in decline because it's becoming too expensive. It is in decline because it does not cater to the needs and expectations of modern society. I will say again: fewer people these days are willing to stand around on an airfield for an entire day for perhaps 20 mins in the air.
That's the problem...

People have a range of interests and what they do in gliding, instructing, tugs, local soaring, decent cross countries, and you still haven't really elaborated on why you think this 20 minute flight might be a big ambition for a significant proportion. OK for you if that's what you want, but even some early solos still hope they might get an hour and a bit.

Nobody is stopping you doing this for yourself. Several clubs have some self-launching gliders. If you turn up on the potential best day of the year, and there's a queue of 100+ gliders waiting for the first wispy cu to appear before they all go, some on badge or tecord attempts, nobody will object to you going to the front and do your flight first. If launching is already in progress when you turn up, take your place in the queue, or it might fit in ok to let you go from alongside

Even if a club had 100 gliders that are all self-launching you might still have queue issues if you want to be there only an hour predefined by your booking several days earlier, compared to the people rigging at 8 am on a 750 km day. Note that the keen local soarers and trainees in two seaters aren't excluded on those days, they get their flights too.

On less busy days, it wont be a problem for you. But believe it or not, and perhaps you won't, even from early on, more people want to fly on the nice days. Your suggestions don't seem to take much account of that variability of demand.

Then all we'll need is the production of a reliable self launch engine that's meant to be used for it.
And since self launchers have been around for decades, why don't we have them? Has anything changed to reason different expectations. Not really.

Gliding is too inexpensive.

On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 2:42:23 PM UTC, wrote:
Gliding is too inexpensive.

You're right.
Gliding is declining because punters turn up to clubs wanting a trial lesson and become so disgusted with how cheap it is that they take their business elsewhere.