The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

What an awful situation! Is that because your club owns the ground? If
you had a self-launcher you could fly out of a public field using your
own judgment. Or is it a BGA requirement to submit to such treatment?

In The Colonies, we have our every other year flight review required by
the FAA. The rest is on us to be competent.

Down with George III...

Dan
5J

On 3/13/21 6:04 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
and I was cleared to fly my Libelle on the next soarable day.

I think it is mostly a time commitment issue. Going soaring is an all day long affair. I don't see a way around that unless you slip in late morning and skip out right after landing. Not that there are any soaring pilots that would do such a thing. Even such abhorrent behavior still would take up a good portion of the day, if such behavior existed.

On Saturday, March 13, 2021 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 10:33:06 UTC, wrote:
While it may be the case that a volunteer/club model keeps costs low while gliding continues to use 1950's infrastructure and methods, this will not necessarily be the case if/when we begin to adopt alternative technologies at scale.

For a typical winch launch you need as a minimum:
1. A wing runner
2. A signaller
3. A winch driver
4. A recovery driver to fetch the glider when it lands and bring it back to the launch point

None of these are required for self-launching.
Furthermore, turnaround time will be faster with a powered glider in part because it can taxi under its own power.

We need to adopt self-launching with slot booking, as power has been doing since the beginning.

Gliding isn't in decline because it's becoming too expensive. It is in decline because it does not cater to the needs and expectations of modern society. I will say again: fewer people these days are willing to stand around on an airfield for an entire day for perhaps 20 mins in the air.
That's the problem...

My club currently operates 5 tugs and 5 K21's among other aircraft. We offer winch and aerotow launching every day - almost. I have carefully considered the pro's and con's of buying a self-launching K21 and have concluded that it does not make any sense to operate one or two of those alongside a fleet of tugs and pure gliders. Unless we totally change the nature of the operation, we still need members to volunteer for all the other tasks you mention (and many more) and we cannot generate a culture where new members think it is ok to turn up for a booked training slot, enjoy their lesson and go home. We ask students to commit to half a day at the club for their lesson - and if they find that too much then they are never going to become active glider pilots. As it happens, I don't think there is a suitable self-launching glider for the purpose - if you use a touring motor glider it is too much like a power plane, and does not feel like introducing someone to gliding, if you want a self-launching sailplane such as a K21 Mi or a DG1001M - I don't believe any have the reliability and robustness required for a training operation. And most of our current instructors are not qualified to fly them.

Unless we totally change the nature of the operation, we still need members to volunteer for all the other tasks you mention (and many more) and we cannot generate a culture where new members think it is ok to turn up for a booked training slot, enjoy their lesson and go home.
I couldn't agree more! We had a case like this a while ago when a 'helicopter-mom' dropped her son off in the morning because he had an intro-flight that day. She asked me when she could pick him back up again. I told her it would be best if her son calls her in the evening after the equipment has been washed, cleaned, the pajamas put on and then pushed back into the hangar. With a somewhat puzzled look on face, she said 'What?? - my son has to work here? What am I paying the dues for?' In her mind, taking a soaring lesson was akin to booking an hour with the tennis- or golf pro or dropping him off for his Karate lesson. Needless to say that we never saw her or the kid again. It is that culture passed down by parents to their children which is part of the problem! We now spell it out very clearly to any prospect new member what is expected of them if they want to join the club.

Uli
'AS'

On Sunday, March 14, 2021 at 9:32:36 AM UTC-7, Gregg Ballou wrote:
I think it is mostly a time commitment issue. Going soaring is an all day long affair. I don't see a way around that unless you slip in late morning and skip out right after landing. Not that there are any soaring pilots that would do such a thing. Even such abhorrent behavior still would take up a good portion of the day, if such behavior existed.
The club model helps keep soaring costs down and enthusiastic fliers don't mind spending a day at the field. In the 21st century, though, it's a tough model to sell to some of the new generation as their attention span has got shorter and there are many other demands for their time. Just imagine trying to sell a driving school on the same model - you get to push cars around the parking lot for a day and then can practice driving for 20 minutes. With a bit of luck, you'll have your license in a few months!

The 2-33 (aka Gollywomper) may be a good old workhorse but it is hardly attractive to new fliers - a bit like practicing on a model T before you get to sit in a real car!

Mike

The only thing in decline at my club is trailer parking and assembly space.

I used GE to check my memory and put together a photo essay for the club this morning. In Aug 2008, the overhead shows two trailers and four gliders tied out, and I do remember the Feb 2008 annual meeting at which real concern about the future of the club was expressed. Aug 2020 shows 15 trailers (2 or 3 are elsewhere) and 3 gliders tied out. I know of at least two more trailers en route and there is a rumor this morning of a third.

We promote XC. It works.

We train in what was the world's ugliest 2-33, because that's what we have (now with a new interior, thanks Don!). The only guy that complains is one of the back seaters (moi). The students are smart enough to see the GollyWhomper as a stepping stone to better things, including a club owned 304C.

The 304 is the other thing that works: the list of people who crewed for AJ more than once may be short, but the number of pilots who have flown our 304 and have left the sport is shorter still. Most (as in about 9 out of 10) fly the 304, then move whatever parts of their personal heaven and earth need moving to buy a sailplane of their own.

There is nothing we do in our club that you could not do in yours. Boundless enthusiasm does help.

T8

On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 10:13:08 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

What an awful situation! Is that because your club owns the ground? If
you had a self-launcher you could fly out of a public field using your
own judgment. Or is it a BGA requirement to submit to such treatment?

BGA rules. I think it makes sense to show you can handle winch launch and
aero tow eventualities as well as spins at the start of the season - and
anyway its always quite a fun day's flying.

Down with George III...

Leave George 3 alone! During its prime (1968-1977) George 3 and Multics
were easily the best mainframe operating systems available.

OTOH, if you're thinking of the English monarch, the whole Boston Tea
Party kerfuffle was more properly blamed on Clive of India and the
British Parliament. In the aftermath of conquering Bengal, Clive was so
greedy in rewarding himself and his friends that he drove the East India
Company (popularly known as John Company) into bankruptcy. At this point
the British Government decided that John Company was too big to fail and,
not having the cash in hand to bail it out, decided that raising American
colonial taxes to the same level as British citizens were paying was a
good way of raising the money needed bail it out.

So, blaming King George III, who wasn't in good physical or mental health
at the time, for the American Revolution is really aiming at the wrong
targets.

BTW Clive, his son and wife were all as bad as each other at grabbing
anything that glittered and wasn't nailed down tight. The son married
into some somewhat impoverished Welsh nobility, thereby getting a title
and Powis Castle, which currently holds Clive's stash of Indian loot,
which I'm told contains more Mughal stuff than any other museum -
including those in India.

If you want to know more, William Dalrymple's "The Anarchy" is an
excellent, though quite a long read about the East India Company which,
at one stage, owned what was probably the biggest private army the world
has ever known.

Anyway, I now return you to the subject of glider flying.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Sunday, March 14, 2021 at 4:49:52 PM UTC, AS wrote:
I couldn't agree more! We had a case like this a while ago when a 'helicopter-mom' dropped her son off in the morning because he had an intro-flight that day. She asked me when she could pick him back up again. I told her it would be best if her son calls her in the evening after the equipment has been washed, cleaned, the pajamas put on and then pushed back into the hangar. With a somewhat puzzled look on face, she said 'What?? - my son has to work here? What am I paying the dues for?' In her mind, taking a soaring lesson was akin to booking an hour with the tennis- or golf pro or dropping him off for his Karate lesson. Needless to say that we never saw her or the kid again. It is that culture passed down by parents to their children which is part of the problem! We now spell it out very clearly to any prospect new member what is expected of them if they want to join the club.

Uli
'AS'

We have two options:

1. Moan and bitch about how people don't want to spend their day sat on an airfield, in the hope that society returns to the state it was in during the 1960's.

2. Recognise that the world has moved on and change the way we 'do' our sport in order to stay relevant.

One of those options will lead to further decline while the other will potentially lead to its resurgence.

On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 16:49:52 UTC, AS wrote:
I couldn't agree more! We had a case like this a while ago when a 'helicopter-mom' dropped her son off in the morning because he had an intro-flight that day. She asked me when she could pick him back up again. I told her it would be best if her son calls her in the evening after the equipment has been washed, cleaned, the pajamas put on and then pushed back into the hangar. With a somewhat puzzled look on face, she said 'What?? - my son has to work here? What am I paying the dues for?' In her mind, taking a soaring lesson was akin to booking an hour with the tennis- or golf pro or dropping him off for his Karate lesson. Needless to say that we never saw her or the kid again. It is that culture passed down by parents to their children which is part of the problem! We now spell it out very clearly to any prospect new member what is expected of them if they want to join the club.

Uli
'AS'

To be fair, some of that attitude exists in any field, not just gliding. I remember my sister organising a kid's party, and remarking how few other parents offered to help. Was it like free babysitting for the afternoon, I asked

Martin,
If you ever get to Moriarty, I will treat you to all the local beer that
you can handle. Thanks for the history lesson!

Dan
5J

On 3/14/21 11:08 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 10:13:08 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

What an awful situation! Is that because your club owns the ground? If
you had a self-launcher you could fly out of a public field using your
own judgment. Or is it a BGA requirement to submit to such treatment?

BGA rules. I think it makes sense to show you can handle winch launch and
aero tow eventualities as well as spins at the start of the season - and
anyway its always quite a fun day's flying.

Down with George III...

Leave George 3 alone! During its prime (1968-1977) George 3 and Multics
were easily the best mainframe operating systems available.

OTOH, if you're thinking of the English monarch, the whole Boston Tea
Party kerfuffle was more properly blamed on Clive of India and the
British Parliament. In the aftermath of conquering Bengal, Clive was so
greedy in rewarding himself and his friends that he drove the East India
Company (popularly known as John Company) into bankruptcy. At this point
the British Government decided that John Company was too big to fail and,
not having the cash in hand to bail it out, decided that raising American
colonial taxes to the same level as British citizens were paying was a
good way of raising the money needed bail it out.

So, blaming King George III, who wasn't in good physical or mental health
at the time, for the American Revolution is really aiming at the wrong
targets.

BTW Clive, his son and wife were all as bad as each other at grabbing
anything that glittered and wasn't nailed down tight. The son married
into some somewhat impoverished Welsh nobility, thereby getting a title
and Powis Castle, which currently holds Clive's stash of Indian loot,
which I'm told contains more Mughal stuff than any other museum -
including those in India.

If you want to know more, William Dalrymple's "The Anarchy" is an
excellent, though quite a long read about the East India Company which,
at one stage, owned what was probably the biggest private army the world
has ever known.

Anyway, I now return you to the subject of glider flying.

I just want to share an excerpt from a recent posting on the Hood River Soaring Club's google group, posted by one of the youth members (14 years old):

"Starting this Monday, me and any other youth members, or just club members that want to help, will be taking off and replacing the Mylar strips and wing seals on the L-33 and polishing it in KC’s shop. We got the glider disassembled and in the trailer today and hauled it up to his shop. (If you’re a youth member helping with this project, check with your mentor and ask them if you can count it for work study). If you’re interested in helping with this, email me xxxxx or text me xxxxx and let me know if you’re going to help so I can give you the address and or work out what hours we’re gonna work on it."

I was at the field doing some other work and there were 5 youth members and 3 adult members that were assisting launches and glider movement. The current youth cadre consists of about 12 members, the youngest is 12!

The club has been very active at soliciting youth through the local schools and has a "Work-to-fly" program that has produced many new glider points.

Please checkout their website: https://www.hoodriversoaring.org/

Mike