The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 3:29:02 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 7:52:59 AM UTC-7, Gregg Ballou wrote:

Soaring's problem is soaring pilots are almost all Boomers and no one wants to be around Boomers.
No, Gregg - others just don't want to be around you.

Tom
OK Boomer

On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 7:40:43 PM UTC-4, ProfJ wrote:
On Thursday, 11 March 2021 at 01:33:23 UTC-7, wrote:
I think that we have discovered a workable solution between us.

4. Publicly execute people who don't pay tax

You say that like it's a bad thing...

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.

The stunning videos of coastal soaring in South Africa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OOX...l=StefanLanger - were, I believe, taken by competitive pilots who were heavily subsidized to spend the NH winter in the south, keeping up their training, and who are to all intents and purposes professional pilots. I'd go so far as to say that if it wasn't for European, and especially German, government support, we'd all still be flying 1-36's.


Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.
Care to cite the countries in which gliding is heavily subsidized by taxpayer money?
And while you are at it, care to cite the tax codes under which such heavy subsidies are being doled out?
Fair warning: don't mention Germany in your list, because there, it ain't so currently and hasn't been so in the last 40+ years.
I am talking about West-Germany and the now reunified Germany, not 'East-Germany', where the state-run GST (Gesellschaft fuer Sport und Technik), the virtual extension of the HJ ('Asshole with narrow mustache'-Youth) was provided with state money/equipment to seek out talents for their armed forces, etc.!
There is no federal money flowing freely into the coffers of the soaring clubs so they can order the latest glider model every time the ashtray is full! There is a very modest subsidy on the state level by a program called 'Sporthilfe' (Sport Aid) and the club I belonged to would receive maybe 500 Euro per year after filling out reams of applications for it.
All clubs carrying the suffix 'e.V.' in their name are the equivalent of a 501c(3) organizations, which gives them some tax relief. However, matters get really complicated when for instance the club operates its own fuel pump for the tow plane, motor-glider and winch and actually sells fuel to the occasional visiting plane. They have to fork over the sales taxes to their IRS and get audited on that regularly. In addition, clubs are now required to self-certify that their book-keeping is transparent and no money laundry is going on - with an audit about that looming over their heads!
Source of the above: I am related to the person who was the managing director for our club for a very long time and we talked about these matters at length.
So, please get the facts straight before you repeat what your sister's babysitter's third cousin once read on FB!

Uli
'AS'

On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 4:06:18 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Good morning,

My name is Douglas and I am a glider pilot here in the UK.

I would like to start a friendly discussion about the decline of gliding and whether this is an issue outside of the UK.

Within the UK gliding has been in decline for decades and according to discussion on gliderpilot.net this is down to a few key issues, which I may go into later in the thread if required.

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts on this.

-------------
Douglas

It is absolutely correct that in Germany, there is no sigificant sponsoring of soaring by the tax payer. The few individuals who are having fun in Worcester every winter are "Sportsoldaten", i.e. members of the German army which has a section of athletes being sponsored by the arny during 12 months. That does not include the procurement of the gliders.
The wealth of German club has been brought on by... the members of those clubs during a well planned growth over decennies. And many of these clubs (like my club in Switzerland) doesn't see any decline. Most of those clubs have gotten rid of their wood & fabric gliders long ago (maybe with the exception of an ASK13 here and there).

In France, there have been quite some subsidies going into soaring, one big chunk has been the supply of free tow planes (MS893) from the air force. Now that these tugs are getting old and need to be replaced (and the air force doesn't run this program anymore), clubs are running into problems.

Le mardi 16 mars 2021 Ã* 23:37:25 UTC+1, AS a écritÂ*:
On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 7:40:43 PM UTC-4, ProfJ wrote:
On Thursday, 11 March 2021 at 01:33:23 UTC-7, wrote:
I think that we have discovered a workable solution between us.

4. Publicly execute people who don't pay tax

You say that like it's a bad thing...

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.

The stunning videos of coastal soaring in South Africa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OOX...l=StefanLanger - were, I believe, taken by competitive pilots who were heavily subsidized to spend the NH winter in the south, keeping up their training, and who are to all intents and purposes professional pilots. I'd go so far as to say that if it wasn't for European, and especially German, government support, we'd all still be flying 1-36's.


Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.
Care to cite the countries in which gliding is heavily subsidized by taxpayer money?
And while you are at it, care to cite the tax codes under which such heavy subsidies are being doled out?
Fair warning: don't mention Germany in your list, because there, it ain't so currently and hasn't been so in the last 40+ years.
I am talking about West-Germany and the now reunified Germany, not 'East-Germany', where the state-run GST (Gesellschaft fuer Sport und Technik), the virtual extension of the HJ ('Asshole with narrow mustache'-Youth) was provided with state money/equipment to seek out talents for their armed forces, etc.!
There is no federal money flowing freely into the coffers of the soaring clubs so they can order the latest glider model every time the ashtray is full! There is a very modest subsidy on the state level by a program called 'Sporthilfe' (Sport Aid) and the club I belonged to would receive maybe 500 Euro per year after filling out reams of applications for it.
All clubs carrying the suffix 'e.V.' in their name are the equivalent of a 501c(3) organizations, which gives them some tax relief. However, matters get really complicated when for instance the club operates its own fuel pump for the tow plane, motor-glider and winch and actually sells fuel to the occasional visiting plane. They have to fork over the sales taxes to their IRS and get audited on that regularly. In addition, clubs are now required to self-certify that their book-keeping is transparent and no money laundry is going on - with an audit about that looming over their heads!
Source of the above: I am related to the person who was the managing director for our club for a very long time and we talked about these matters at length.
So, please get the facts straight before you repeat what your sister's babysitter's third cousin once read on FB!

Uli
'AS'

Yes the Germans are subsidising glider pilot training and I think I know why.

When the treaty of Versailles prevented the training of military pilots in Germany following WW1, Germany got around this by forming very many gliding clubs and training pilots so that in WW2 they had people who could fly planes.

During the Brexit campaign, the then prime minister David Cameron warned that Brexit could lead to WW3, and I think he's right!
The Germans are training future pilots to fly k13's in preparation for when they invade Britain.

Somebody tell the CIA!

On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 02:04:29 -0700, Tango Whisky wrote:

In France, there have been quite some subsidies going into soaring, one
big chunk has been the supply of free tow planes (MS893) from the air
force. Now that these tugs are getting old and need to be replaced (and
the air force doesn't run this program anymore), clubs are running into
problems.

I remember the MS893 Rallye - my club had one and a 235hp Pawnee in the
early 2000s, both now replaced by Robins.

Are there any MS 502 tugs still flying in France?

On Tuesday, 16 March 2021 at 01:40:43 UTC+2, ProfJ wrote:

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.

Yes in Europe everything is subsidized or paid by governments. We don't actually work anymore, we just soar if it's not skiing season or beach day. And taxes? Yep, we found out that you can make government pay them instead of individual people.

;-[)

Nicely put!

Dan
5J

On 3/17/21 5:06 AM, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 March 2021 at 01:40:43 UTC+2, ProfJ wrote:

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.

Yes in Europe everything is subsidized or paid by governments. We don't actually work anymore, we just soar if it's not skiing season or beach day. And taxes? Yep, we found out that you can make government pay them instead of individual people.

On Wednesday, 17 March 2021 at 08:53:17 UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
;-[)

Nicely put!

Dan
5J
On 3/17/21 5:06 AM, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 March 2021 at 01:40:43 UTC+2, ProfJ wrote:

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.

Yes in Europe everything is subsidized or paid by governments. We don't actually work anymore, we just soar if it's not skiing season or beach day.. And taxes? Yep, we found out that you can make government pay them instead of individual people.

So the Sportssoldaten are not subsidized with taxpayer money, they're just paid by the government to fly full time? OK, got it. And the accumulated subsidies that the clubs received don't carry any momentum either (those poor French clubs, soon they're going to have to buy their own tugs!). It's just like all those kids at Harvard, whose parents were also at Harvard, but they're there on merit and their own nickel (from the 'rents). I stand entirely corrected...

On Thursday, 25 March 2021 at 04:09:11 UTC+2, ProfJ wrote:

So the Sportssoldaten are not subsidized with taxpayer money, they're just paid by the government to fly full time? OK, got it. And the accumulated subsidies that the clubs received don't carry any momentum either (those poor French clubs, soon they're going to have to buy their own tugs!). It's just like all those kids at Harvard, whose parents were also at Harvard, but they're there on merit and their own nickel (from the 'rents). I stand entirely corrected...

As a resident of one European country (FYI there are many) I too believe the societies here are the best in the world and you have every reason to be jealous of them.