The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Wednesday, 17 March 2021 at 08:53:17 UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
;-[)

Nicely put!

Dan
5J
On 3/17/21 5:06 AM, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 March 2021 at 01:40:43 UTC+2, ProfJ wrote:

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.

Yes in Europe everything is subsidized or paid by governments. We don't actually work anymore, we just soar if it's not skiing season or beach day.. And taxes? Yep, we found out that you can make government pay them instead of individual people.

So the Sportssoldaten are not subsidized with taxpayer money, they're just paid by the government to fly full time? OK, got it. And the accumulated subsidies that the clubs received don't carry any momentum either (those poor French clubs, soon they're going to have to buy their own tugs!). It's just like all those kids at Harvard, whose parents were also at Harvard, but they're there on merit and their own nickel (from the 'rents). I stand entirely corrected...

On Thursday, 25 March 2021 at 04:09:11 UTC+2, ProfJ wrote:

So the Sportssoldaten are not subsidized with taxpayer money, they're just paid by the government to fly full time? OK, got it. And the accumulated subsidies that the clubs received don't carry any momentum either (those poor French clubs, soon they're going to have to buy their own tugs!). It's just like all those kids at Harvard, whose parents were also at Harvard, but they're there on merit and their own nickel (from the 'rents). I stand entirely corrected...

As a resident of one European country (FYI there are many) I too believe the societies here are the best in the world and you have every reason to be jealous of them.

On Thursday, 25 March 2021 at 04:09:11 UTC+2, ProfJ wrote:

So the Sportssoldaten are not subsidized with taxpayer money, they're just paid by the government to fly full time? OK, got it. And the accumulated subsidies that the clubs received don't carry any momentum either (those poor French clubs, soon they're going to have to buy their own tugs!). It's just like all those kids at Harvard, whose parents were also at Harvard, but they're there on merit and their own nickel (from the 'rents). I stand entirely corrected...

As a resident of one European country (FYI there are many) I too believe the societies here are the best in the world and you have every reason to be jealous of them.

On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 10:09:11 PM UTC-4, ProfJ wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 March 2021 at 08:53:17 UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
;-[)

Nicely put!

Dan
5J
On 3/17/21 5:06 AM, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 March 2021 at 01:40:43 UTC+2, ProfJ wrote:

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by.....wait for it...taxpayer money.

Yes in Europe everything is subsidized or paid by governments. We don't actually work anymore, we just soar if it's not skiing season or beach day. And taxes? Yep, we found out that you can make government pay them instead of individual people.

So the Sportssoldaten are not subsidized with taxpayer money, they're just paid by the government to fly full time? OK, got it. And the accumulated subsidies that the clubs received don't carry any momentum either (those poor French clubs, soon they're going to have to buy their own tugs!). It's just like all those kids at Harvard, whose parents were also at Harvard, but they're there on merit and their own nickel (from the 'rents). I stand entirely corrected...

On the subject of the 'Sportsoldaten', how is the soaring program of the Air Force Academy in CO funded? By the cadet's parents? By the alumni of the Academy? By a donation box at the local gas-station?
Or what about the Civil Air Patrol (CAP)? They run a glider program and even own a few winches.
If you take just the budget for these programs alone, I bet it eclipses the 'tax-payer subsidy' of soaring clubs in any European country, if it even exists!
Don't get me wrong - I am not saying that these two programs funded by the defense budget shouldn't exist but I think they are worth mentioning when we are discussing publicly funded soaring activities in other countries.

Uli
'AS'

AS wrote on 3/25/2021 5:26 AM:
On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 10:09:11 PM UTC-4, ProfJ wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 March 2021 at 08:53:17 UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
;-[)

Nicely put!

Dan
5J
On 3/17/21 5:06 AM, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 March 2021 at 01:40:43 UTC+2, ProfJ wrote:

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by.....wait for it...taxpayer money.

Yes in Europe everything is subsidized or paid by governments. We don't actually work anymore, we just soar if it's not skiing season or beach day. And taxes? Yep, we found out that you can make government pay them instead of individual people.

So the Sportssoldaten are not subsidized with taxpayer money, they're just paid by the government to fly full time? OK, got it. And the accumulated subsidies that the clubs received don't carry any momentum either (those poor French clubs, soon they're going to have to buy their own tugs!). It's just like all those kids at Harvard, whose parents were also at Harvard, but they're there on merit and their own nickel (from the 'rents). I stand entirely corrected...

On the subject of the 'Sportsoldaten', how is the soaring program of the Air Force Academy in CO funded? By the cadet's parents? By the alumni of the Academy? By a donation box at the local gas-station?
Or what about the Civil Air Patrol (CAP)? They run a glider program and even own a few winches.
If you take just the budget for these programs alone, I bet it eclipses the 'tax-payer subsidy' of soaring clubs in any European country, if it even exists!
Don't get me wrong - I am not saying that these two programs funded by the defense budget shouldn't exist but I think they are worth mentioning when we are discussing publicly funded soaring activities in other countries.

Neither program, Air Force or CAP, is intended to promote soaring. The Air Force "soaring"
program is really a simple gliding operation that can take participants to solo, and like the
similar airplane operation, is intended to introduce cadets to basic airmanship. You have to be
in the Air Force to use the program, so it is definitely not comparable to publicly accessible
soaring centers that get aid from the government.
-
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

The USAF Academy's soaring program is also the cheapest initial pilot training in the Air Force.

On Thursday, March 25, 2021 at 10:29:39 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
The USAF Academy's soaring program is also the cheapest initial pilot training in the Air Force.

Eric, Mark

I get that the Academy and CAP require you to join 'the club' and in these cases, the club kindly asks you to wear a uniform. ;-)
The Academy also sponsors their cadet's participation in contests, so it is not all about leadership and basic airmanship.
I agree with Mark that this is the cheapest initial pilot training - not only in the US-Air Force but also with many Air Forces around the world.
My hope is that folks who become exposed to flying glider (soaring or not) though either one of these taxpayer funded programs will one day return to the sport and therefore, I count them as such.

Uli
'AS'

AS wrote on 3/25/2021 9:01 AM:
On Thursday, March 25, 2021 at 10:29:39 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
The USAF Academy's soaring program is also the cheapest initial pilot training in the Air Force.

Eric, Mark

I get that the Academy and CAP require you to join 'the club' and in these cases, the club kindly asks you to wear a uniform. ;-)
The Academy also sponsors their cadet's participation in contests, so it is not all about leadership and basic airmanship.
I agree with Mark that this is the cheapest initial pilot training - not only in the US-Air Force but also with many Air Forces around the world.
My hope is that folks who become exposed to flying glider (soaring or not) though either one of these taxpayer funded programs will one day return to the sport and therefore, I count them as such.

Who has come to soaring due to exposure to gliders in USAF or the CAP? Anyone? I'm sure there
must be some, but I'm not aware of any.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Thursday, March 25, 2021 at 12:58:28 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 3/25/2021 9:01 AM:
On Thursday, March 25, 2021 at 10:29:39 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
The USAF Academy's soaring program is also the cheapest initial pilot training in the Air Force.

Eric, Mark

I get that the Academy and CAP require you to join 'the club' and in these cases, the club kindly asks you to wear a uniform. ;-)
The Academy also sponsors their cadet's participation in contests, so it is not all about leadership and basic airmanship.
I agree with Mark that this is the cheapest initial pilot training - not only in the US-Air Force but also with many Air Forces around the world.
My hope is that folks who become exposed to flying glider (soaring or not) though either one of these taxpayer funded programs will one day return to the sport and therefore, I count them as such.

Who has come to soaring due to exposure to gliders in USAF or the CAP? Anyone? I'm sure there
must be some, but I'm not aware of any.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

A young woman just joint our club and she came to us via CAP. I had a coworker who washed out of the Air Force Academy after 2 years but did participate in the glider program. He liked it and I think he went on to join a glider club after leaving my company and moving away.
So yes, I think these programs do have a positive impact on Soaring.

Uli
'AS'

Speaking as an 'average Joe' who was never cut out to be an elite glider pilot, a person who have flown consistently for a decade .... The club system is an anachronism that works best when there is a super-abundance of people who are eager to become pilots. The system advances the people who turn out to be the best pilots. At the same time it discourages weaker candidates, and so to speak, diverts them to the 'infantry' (or in the present day, to some less challenging hobby). This system worked fine in gliding's golden ages.

In the present day, fewer people want to become pilots, so we need a system that advances people who have less talent, less discretionary time, less motivation, and in many cases less ability to learn quickly (a common trait of the 50-60 y.o. students who now have time/money/motivation to do gliding without the distractions of family-starting and career-building for the next 20 years). I mean... going a week or two between flight lessons (and other impediments at clubs) make it hard for the average Joe/Jane to progress. Try to do that for a year or two, get frustrated, quit, and lose your entire investment of time and money without achieving your goal (that almost happened to me!). These less gifted pilots become contributing/sustaining club members once they get over the hurdle of initial training.

I recommend only two paths for the average Joe/Jane to be come a glider pilot:

1)Take a 'gliding vacation', a week or so of concentrated training at a commercial operation, follow up with training at the local club. Take a second/third gliding vacation as needed. Possibly finish your rating at a commercial operation. Then fly more dual and learn to soar.

2)Learn to fly power plane first. In USA, do glider add-on rating at a commercial flight school. Follow on with lots of dual flights at local gliding club to learn how to soar.

These options are not so expensive because the student has a better chance of achieving their goal, and the cost might be about the same as traditional club training, if it takes fewer flights over fewer months. A student who quits club training pays the highest price.

I strongly recommend gliding club-based training to young people who have the opportunity to join a viable youth program at a club where they can train along side other people their age. A few exceptions (above-average Joe/Jane) will find their way through the club training gauntlet without my encouragement. Others will stumble into the maw of glider club training, get frustrated, quit, tell their friends, and end up forever lost to gliding. Too bad, but I did not send them down that path.

Some clubs have 'training camps', that provide concentrated training over a week, similar to what one can do at a commercial operation. That seems like a good idea. In some places, these camps are for students with no prior experience.