The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:00:58 -0700, Douglas Richardson wrote:

And we need to stop leaving all the work to the "yoof" because we can't
be arsed to do anything ourselves.

Well said.

Equally to the point, a CLUB is run by and for its members, so there
should be no difference between 'da yoof' and us old buggers when it
comes to helping to run it. This something that should involve all
members, regardless of age or sex. The only exceptions should apply to
roles that need specific qualifications and/or training, i.e.
instructors, tug pilots, winch drivers and launch marshals.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 10:59:37 PM UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Well said.

Equally to the point, a CLUB is run by and for its members, so there
should be no difference between 'da yoof' and us old buggers when it
comes to helping to run it. This something that should involve all
members, regardless of age or sex. The only exceptions should apply to
roles that need specific qualifications and/or training, i.e.
instructors, tug pilots, winch drivers and launch marshals.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org


Part of the problem is that many clubs have this ridiculous notion of "experience": somebody is only ready to serve on committee or contribute in some greater way when they have enough "experience".

But what exactly do the old blokes mean when they talk about "experience"?

Does one need to have gained 3 diamonds before they have enough experience to contribute to the club's marketing efforts?
Do hours in the air correlate with your ability to make financial decisions effecting the future of the club?
Does time standing around at the launch-point determine your ability to make the club relevant to the next generation?

The dogma peddled by old glider pilots the world over is basically that unless you've stood around a lot gassing at the launch-point, you couldn't possibly know anything about how to run a gliding operation.

This is one of the fundamental reasons why gliding is in decline; many of the people who are directing gliding haven't the skills necessary to direct and market gliding, and yet they are convinced that they are the best people for the job!

This is one of the fundamental reasons why gliding is in decline; many of the people who are directing gliding haven't the skills necessary to direct and market gliding, and yet they are convinced that they are the best people for the job!

And we have the same problem in politics. We keep electing the same people over and over, because of their "experience." Where is Cincinnatus when you need him?

On Monday, 19 April 2021 at 13:56:11 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 10:59:37 PM UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Well said.

Equally to the point, a CLUB is run by and for its members, so there
should be no difference between 'da yoof' and us old buggers when it
comes to helping to run it. This something that should involve all
members, regardless of age or sex. The only exceptions should apply to
roles that need specific qualifications and/or training, i.e.
instructors, tug pilots, winch drivers and launch marshals.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Part of the problem is that many clubs have this ridiculous notion of "experience": somebody is only ready to serve on committee or contribute in some greater way when they have enough "experience".

But what exactly do the old blokes mean when they talk about "experience"?

Does one need to have gained 3 diamonds before they have enough experience to contribute to the club's marketing efforts?
Do hours in the air correlate with your ability to make financial decisions effecting the future of the club?
Does time standing around at the launch-point determine your ability to make the club relevant to the next generation?

The dogma peddled by old glider pilots the world over is basically that unless you've stood around a lot gassing at the launch-point, you couldn't possibly know anything about how to run a gliding operation.

This is one of the fundamental reasons why gliding is in decline; many of the people who are directing gliding haven't the skills necessary to direct and market gliding, and yet they are convinced that they are the best people for the job!

There seems to be more dogma in your repetition of this rather cliched or stereotypical portrayal.

People aren't hanging around gassing at the launch point. They are getting ready to fly a glider, or a tug, or drive the winch, or helping hook on, or fetching landed gliders back for their next launch. In the recent era of Covid there may have been slight shortages of helpers from time to time, and the folk near the back of the grid might need a friendly reminder to help with the launch.

Whingeing like this generally happens when there isn't enough flying. Some people at our club have done 500 km every day for a week, so they arent complaining.That's what the sport is about, not your system of booked slots, which can already be used for training, but isn't appropriate for getting the best out of the day's soaring weather.

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:33:16 PM UTC+1, andy l wrote:
On Monday, 19 April 2021 at 13:56:11 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 10:59:37 PM UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Well said.

Equally to the point, a CLUB is run by and for its members, so there
should be no difference between 'da yoof' and us old buggers when it
comes to helping to run it. This something that should involve all
members, regardless of age or sex. The only exceptions should apply to
roles that need specific qualifications and/or training, i.e.
instructors, tug pilots, winch drivers and launch marshals.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Part of the problem is that many clubs have this ridiculous notion of "experience": somebody is only ready to serve on committee or contribute in some greater way when they have enough "experience".

But what exactly do the old blokes mean when they talk about "experience"?

Does one need to have gained 3 diamonds before they have enough experience to contribute to the club's marketing efforts?
Do hours in the air correlate with your ability to make financial decisions effecting the future of the club?
Does time standing around at the launch-point determine your ability to make the club relevant to the next generation?

The dogma peddled by old glider pilots the world over is basically that unless you've stood around a lot gassing at the launch-point, you couldn't possibly know anything about how to run a gliding operation.

This is one of the fundamental reasons why gliding is in decline; many of the people who are directing gliding haven't the skills necessary to direct and market gliding, and yet they are convinced that they are the best people for the job!
There seems to be more dogma in your repetition of this rather cliched or stereotypical portrayal.

People aren't hanging around gassing at the launch point. They are getting ready to fly a glider, or a tug, or drive the winch, or helping hook on, or fetching landed gliders back for their next launch. In the recent era of Covid there may have been slight shortages of helpers from time to time, and the folk near the back of the grid might need a friendly reminder to help with the launch.

Whingeing like this generally happens when there isn't enough flying. Some people at our club have done 500 km every day for a week, so they arent complaining.That's what the sport is about, not your system of booked slots, which can already be used for training, but isn't appropriate for getting the best out of the day's soaring weather.

Calm down, darling. We wouldn't want you to get your knickers in a twist, would we now?

Nobody is whinging, we're discussing the decline of gliding, hence the title of the thread. Some of the points raised are often not considered.

Maybe we should hope that the sun comes out to let us all forget about how quickly our sport is dying?

Toot toot.

On Tuesday, 20 April 2021 at 10:04:10 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:33:16 PM UTC+1, andy l wrote:
On Monday, 19 April 2021 at 13:56:11 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 10:59:37 PM UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Well said.

Equally to the point, a CLUB is run by and for its members, so there
should be no difference between 'da yoof' and us old buggers when it
comes to helping to run it. This something that should involve all
members, regardless of age or sex. The only exceptions should apply to
roles that need specific qualifications and/or training, i.e.
instructors, tug pilots, winch drivers and launch marshals.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Part of the problem is that many clubs have this ridiculous notion of "experience": somebody is only ready to serve on committee or contribute in some greater way when they have enough "experience".

But what exactly do the old blokes mean when they talk about "experience"?

Does one need to have gained 3 diamonds before they have enough experience to contribute to the club's marketing efforts?
Do hours in the air correlate with your ability to make financial decisions effecting the future of the club?
Does time standing around at the launch-point determine your ability to make the club relevant to the next generation?

The dogma peddled by old glider pilots the world over is basically that unless you've stood around a lot gassing at the launch-point, you couldn't possibly know anything about how to run a gliding operation.

This is one of the fundamental reasons why gliding is in decline; many of the people who are directing gliding haven't the skills necessary to direct and market gliding, and yet they are convinced that they are the best people for the job!
There seems to be more dogma in your repetition of this rather cliched or stereotypical portrayal.

People aren't hanging around gassing at the launch point. They are getting ready to fly a glider, or a tug, or drive the winch, or helping hook on, or fetching landed gliders back for their next launch. In the recent era of Covid there may have been slight shortages of helpers from time to time, and the folk near the back of the grid might need a friendly reminder to help with the launch.

Whingeing like this generally happens when there isn't enough flying. Some people at our club have done 500 km every day for a week, so they arent complaining.That's what the sport is about, not your system of booked slots, which can already be used for training, but isn't appropriate for getting the best out of the day's soaring weather.
Calm down, darling. We wouldn't want you to get your knickers in a twist, would we now?

Nobody is whinging, we're discussing the decline of gliding, hence the title of the thread. Some of the points raised are often not considered.

Maybe we should hope that the sun comes out to let us all forget about how quickly our sport is dying?

Toot toot.

You, plus a group of multiple IDs on an equivalent forum in the UK, keep putting this proposition that gliding is declining, or that the people at the top are out of touch.

Although there may be slightly fewer people involved overall, it is also quite possible that more people are doing proportionately more actual flying.

Especially with the very good (if sometimes quite cold i.e minus 8 deg C at cloudbase) weather in the UK recently

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 2:13:48 PM UTC+1, andy l wrote:
On Tuesday, 20 April 2021 at 10:04:10 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:33:16 PM UTC+1, andy l wrote:
On Monday, 19 April 2021 at 13:56:11 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 10:59:37 PM UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Well said.

Equally to the point, a CLUB is run by and for its members, so there
should be no difference between 'da yoof' and us old buggers when it
comes to helping to run it. This something that should involve all
members, regardless of age or sex. The only exceptions should apply to
roles that need specific qualifications and/or training, i.e.
instructors, tug pilots, winch drivers and launch marshals.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Part of the problem is that many clubs have this ridiculous notion of "experience": somebody is only ready to serve on committee or contribute in some greater way when they have enough "experience".

But what exactly do the old blokes mean when they talk about "experience"?

Does one need to have gained 3 diamonds before they have enough experience to contribute to the club's marketing efforts?
Do hours in the air correlate with your ability to make financial decisions effecting the future of the club?
Does time standing around at the launch-point determine your ability to make the club relevant to the next generation?

The dogma peddled by old glider pilots the world over is basically that unless you've stood around a lot gassing at the launch-point, you couldn't possibly know anything about how to run a gliding operation.

This is one of the fundamental reasons why gliding is in decline; many of the people who are directing gliding haven't the skills necessary to direct and market gliding, and yet they are convinced that they are the best people for the job!
There seems to be more dogma in your repetition of this rather cliched or stereotypical portrayal.

People aren't hanging around gassing at the launch point. They are getting ready to fly a glider, or a tug, or drive the winch, or helping hook on, or fetching landed gliders back for their next launch. In the recent era of Covid there may have been slight shortages of helpers from time to time, and the folk near the back of the grid might need a friendly reminder to help with the launch.

Whingeing like this generally happens when there isn't enough flying. Some people at our club have done 500 km every day for a week, so they arent complaining.That's what the sport is about, not your system of booked slots, which can already be used for training, but isn't appropriate for getting the best out of the day's soaring weather.
Calm down, darling. We wouldn't want you to get your knickers in a twist, would we now?

Nobody is whinging, we're discussing the decline of gliding, hence the title of the thread. Some of the points raised are often not considered.

Maybe we should hope that the sun comes out to let us all forget about how quickly our sport is dying?

Toot toot.
You, plus a group of multiple IDs on an equivalent forum in the UK, keep putting this proposition that gliding is declining, or that the people at the top are out of touch.

Although there may be slightly fewer people involved overall, it is also quite possible that more people are doing proportionately more actual flying.

Especially with the very good (if sometimes quite cold i.e minus 8 deg C at cloudbase) weather in the UK recently

The conversation regarding gliding being in decline is a discussion that has been ongoing within the UK gliding community. It is an issue that has resulted in a lot of arguments and finger-pointing online, you're right.
There is no need to drag this thread down that path, thank you.

I do not recall anybody suggesting that "the people at the top" are out of touch. Rather, the people at club and national level in the UK seem to react poorly to the conversation about the decline of gliding simply because the conversation inevitably leads on to an examination of who is in a position to do something....which inevitably leads on to how good a job are they doing....

Gliding being a sport in decline is something that is generally accepted the world over. Are you suggesting that in fact gliding is not in decline as a sport?

It doesn't need to be this way. In the midst of a pandemic, Sandhill Soaring Club (located in S.E. Michigan) has grown from 70 to about 90 members in the course of a couple of years. We largely attribute this to upgrading the fleet, having a regular presence on social media and a decent website that attracts customers and informs prospects and members of pertinent information (i.e. dues, rates, aircraft operating manuals, weight and balance and performance specs, club handbooks, club rules, currency sheets, safety resources, etc), and the contributions of about 20 active members (volunteers) who make it possible for new students to join the club and learn to fly gliders. Our fleet includes two (2) G-103, one (1) DG-505, and an Open Cirrus, as well as other basic trainers and a Scheibe SF-25C Motorglider. Presently, students can learn to winch and get a self-launch endorsement at Sandhill.. Those getting their private pilots licenses are starting to receive advanced soaring instruction in our DG-505. In fact two CFIG flew cross-country for the first time at the Seniors with the club's Chief Flight Instructor and are presently learning how to use TopHat/XCSoar as a cross-country navigational aid and are actively working on getting their Silver and Gold badges. Student pilots (post solo) are now being encouraged to participate in the ABC Bronze Badge Program and get their 5 hr duration and 1,000m gain in preparation for conducting their first xc distance flights.

The key to retaining members is having good instructor feedback (this assumes you use a syllabus and your CFIGs have good rapport with the clubs student pilots), and being able to meet the needs of both new and existing members. I also recommend having regular social functions (potlucks, BBQs, etc), which IMHO clubs should do once the bulk of their membership have been vaccinated for Covid-19.

Clubs also need strong leadership... clubs suffer from political infighting.. Clubs need a vision and a purpose, and then they need to do their best to fulfill that purpose. Don't get me wrong, Sandhill makes a lot of mistakes and has lost more than its fare share of stuBe the dent and existing members to indifference and to put it plainly not being able to meet the needs of its members, but all in all the club is enjoying healthy membership levels and will continue to grow at a sustainable pace. Hopefully yours does too..

Just my 2 cents.

- Chris Schrader "I fly CN mostly"
Vice President of Sandhill Soaring Club