Separating the men from the boys

Doug- What I actually *did* as a young idiot and what was 3710/SOP are two
different stories, of course. I think Pechs' original question was a 3710
issue BRBR

As I get older, my memory goes the way of late nights and pitching decks...less
fun. But I was never in a squadron where the min wasn't 500 ft AGL...all
Fighter squadrons.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 11/3/03 8:24 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" wrote:

Doug- What I actually *did* as a young idiot and what was 3710/SOP are two
different stories, of course. I think Pechs' original question was a 3710
issue BRBR

As I get older, my memory goes the way of late nights and pitching
decks...less
fun. But I was never in a squadron where the min wasn't 500 ft AGL...all
Fighter squadrons.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

That's why all of us Intruder pukes made fun of you... Except when you were
flying sweep or BARCAP for us.

Pechs, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Now that you mention it, I
do remember flying low-levels with the Tomcat guys and having the SOP
difference come up. I'm pretty sure that's what it was--a community
differences issue.

--Woody

Doug- Pechs, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Now that you mention
it, I
do remember flying low-levels with the Tomcat guys and having the SOP
difference come up. I'm pretty sure that's what it was--a community
differences issue. BRBR

Think so too, and remember I was in Turkeys when they were A-A only..But my SOP
in VF-126 was 500 ft AGL as well...altho I have looked up at the tops of cactus
around the Yuma A-A range...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 11/4/03 9:41 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" wrote:

Doug- Pechs, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Now that you mention
it, I
do remember flying low-levels with the Tomcat guys and having the SOP
difference come up. I'm pretty sure that's what it was--a community
differences issue. BRBR

Think so too, and remember I was in Turkeys when they were A-A only..But my
SOP
in VF-126 was 500 ft AGL as well...altho I have looked up at the tops of
cactus
around the Yuma A-A range...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Pechs,

I thumbed through 3710 today just to refresh my own knowledge. In my quick
perusal of the flight rules section, I could find no references to an
absolute minimum altitude for flying Navy aircraft.

There are some "refer to FAR part 91" words, and a discussion in the MTR
section about staying within the route structure both vertically and
laterally (typically no lower than 01 AGL on even the sportiest routes), but
no specific reference to an absolute MINALT.

BUT... In the ACM training rules section there is mention that pilots not
being LATT qual'ed must stay above 500' AGL and pilots with formal LATT
training must be above 200' AGL.

I believe that TYPE WING and squadron SOP's set the hard minimums.

--Woody

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote...

I thumbed through 3710 today just to refresh my own knowledge. In my quick
perusal of the flight rules section, I could find no references to an
absolute minimum altitude for flying Navy aircraft.

Look at par 5.2.6.a on page 5-15.

On 11/4/03 9:17 PM, in article xZZpb.108555$HS4.919278@attbi_s01, "John R
Weiss" wrote:

Look at par 5.2.6.a on page 5-15.

Thanks, JR...

I thought it was in there somewhere... guess my perusal was too quick!

Quote:

"Except when necessary for takeoff and landing
or when the mission of the flight requires otherwise,
flights in fixed-wing aircraft shall not be
conducted below an altitude of 500 feet above the
terrain or surface of the water."

That sticky gray area for CO's is that first sentence isn't it? Formal LATT
training gets around that these days, but I could SWEAR that number was 200'
AGL in the late '80's - early '90's.

--Woody

I know you guys are talking jets, but there is nothing in the NATOPS against
flying heloes right down in the rotorwash - ten to fifty feet was completely
common, depending on what we were doing. While that much is obvious, there was
also no restriction against scuttling around at insanely low altitudes and
lethal speeds. I know 120 knots is peanuts to you guys, but I have had pilots
(a particular one in mind) that would fly the helo at absolute top speed, with
the nose of the helicopter 10 feet above the sea. Being in the back during
such a stunt, I felt that one ill-timed glance and the pilot would dump us face
first into the water.

Each time a pilot elected to fly in this particular flight attitude (tail high,
nose down, balls out and skimming), I made it a habit to unstrap and go
forward, carefully sitting on the radio control panel between the pilots.
(Kind of sidesaddle, with my legs toward the door and my torso turned
sideways, with my left shoulder almost up even with the pilots.) Excellent
vantage point, providing me with every bit as exciting a ride as the pilots.
Typically, my choice of seating caused a bit of ICS chatter, with one or both
of them asking some variation of WTFAYD? I said, "If I'm going to get
vaporized on impact while you guys are having fun, I at least want to be able
to see it coming." Discussion never went beyond that and at whatever point
they switched to practicing something else, I'd go back, give a cabin status
report and strap in.

My reasoning for this is that there is no way to use my radar when we have the
tail 30 degrees higher than the nose, with a radar horizon fifty feet out, so
why stay in my seat during one of those sprints? I would have preferred sitting
in the door, but NATOPS commanded the door be closed over 90 knots -
spoil-sports...

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."