F-14 on the History Channel's "Modern Marvels"

On 11/4/03 12:37 PM, in article
, "James Woody"
wrote:

Yep - RIO (running into obsolesce). 2 pair of eyes was always better
than one.

Woody


Woody,

In the air-to-air arena, I've never found the two sets of eyes in the Tomcat
(or the Strike Eagle for that matter) to be an advantage against single-seat
fighters at the merge. Been there many times against Tomcats when the Toms
are tally 0 (red or blue) and the Hornets are tally all (blue or red). In
fact, I see "no joy's" out of Tomcats way more than out of Hornets.

Don't take that as NFO bashing. I've got a lot of respect for B/N's, WSO's,
and RIO's in the systems weapons and sensor supported weapons roles. It's
great to have one guy totally focused on target acq and weapons support
leaving the pilot to flying form and avoiding the threat.

I just think that their additional utility (given current technology) in the
air-to-air arena is limited.

I'm sure I'm going to get many responses from this one. Seriously, folks,
not a troll.

--Woody

Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal wrote:

Don't take that as NFO bashing. I've got a lot of respect for B/N's, WSO's,
and RIO's in the systems weapons and sensor supported weapons roles. It's
great to have one guy totally focused on target acq and weapons support
leaving the pilot to flying form and avoiding the threat.

I just think that their additional utility (given current technology) in the
air-to-air arena is limited.

I'm sure I'm going to get many responses from this one. Seriously, folks,
not a troll.

I think the real battle of the decade is going to be how many pilots
will remain in the cockpit. There's going to be some paradimg shifts
going on soon.

paradimg shifts going on soon.

With the emergence of technologies like UAV, I can already hear gears
stripping. g

One thing is for sure - change will come in ways none of us will reasonably
anticipate. I wouldn't rule out a resurgence of cockpit opportunities for
BOTH the one and two-anchor communities.

--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"When you enter the voting booth, vote for the guy you think will go to jail
last!"

- Anonymous


"nafod40" wrote in message
...
Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal wrote:

Don't take that as NFO bashing. I've got a lot of respect for B/N's,
WSO's,
and RIO's in the systems weapons and sensor supported weapons roles.
It's
great to have one guy totally focused on target acq and weapons support
leaving the pilot to flying form and avoiding the threat.

I just think that their additional utility (given current technology) in
the
air-to-air arena is limited.

I'm sure I'm going to get many responses from this one. Seriously,
folks,
not a troll.

I think the real battle of the decade is going to be how many pilots
will remain in the cockpit. There's going to be some paradimg shifts
going on soon.

Mike Kanze wrote:
paradigm shifts going on soon.


With the emergence of technologies like UAV, I can already hear gears
stripping. g

One thing is for sure - change will come in ways none of us will reasonably
anticipate. I wouldn't rule out a resurgence of cockpit opportunities for
BOTH the one and two-anchor communities.

I can picture a largish jet with serious knots, legs, and loiter time
taking off to do battle, surrounded by a small flock of way-smart UAVs.
a mix seems to intuitively make sense.

You NFO-hating ******* troll!!

Just kidding. I'll grant you the "at the merge" utility as being
marginal, but does the addition of an extra set of eyes/ears/digits
pre-merge significantly reduce the potential for task saturation and
therefore increase overall mission effectiveness? (Especially if the
RIO is minding the store on other aspects of the mission?) My guess is
"probably", but we'll have to wait to see what the F-model experience
base builds.

I think the real crux of the question (and here's the real troll) is how
many merges will we really see in the future? The old "end of
dogfighting?" issue, revisited yet again. Having heard countless CAGs
and NSAWC Overalls carp repeatedly about the need to clean up merges, I
know the need is there and that we train to it continuously - but let's
be realistic about an Adversary's skills needed to *make* it to the
merge, let alone clean it up to their own advantage. At night. In an EA
environment. That calls for some serious varsity-time training and
experience, and who in the world has it but us? End troll

-Jim C.

Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal wrote:


I'm sure I'm going to get many responses from this one. Seriously, folks,
not a troll.

--Woody

On 11/5/03 5:35 PM, in article , "Jim Calpin"
wrote:

You NFO-hating ******* troll!!

Just kidding. I'll grant you the "at the merge" utility as being
marginal, but does the addition of an extra set of eyes/ears/digits
pre-merge significantly reduce the potential for task saturation and
therefore increase overall mission effectiveness? (Especially if the
RIO is minding the store on other aspects of the mission?) My guess is
"probably", but we'll have to wait to see what the F-model experience
base builds.


Certainly does open up a can o' worms.

Never having flown a two-seat FIGHTER (I'm VA to VFA) I'm speaking out of
turn here, but stories relayed from my VF to VFA buddies indicate that it's
much easier (given the automation) to perform the fighter mission (and with
greater success) in the Hornet. All cite the single-seat configuration as
one of the major factors given:

1. All tactical decisions at range (Defend? Skate? Banzai? Shoot?
Crank?) become the responsibility of just one set of brain cells and don't
have to be communicated with another set before execution.

2. Easy to find the beam if defending because you're not depending on some
other guy to tell you where it is.

3. The tendency if you're talking on the radio to NOT miss radio calls as
opposed to if you're simply listening to the radio. This is the phenomenon
I see quite often... Heck, I even do it sometimes in my civilian job.

I think the real crux of the question (and here's the real troll) is how
many merges will we really see in the future? The old "end of
dogfighting?" issue, revisited yet again. Having heard countless CAGs
and NSAWC Overalls carp repeatedly about the need to clean up merges, I
know the need is there and that we train to it continuously - but let's
be realistic about an Adversary's skills needed to *make* it to the
merge, let alone clean it up to their own advantage. At night. In an EA
environment. That calls for some serious varsity-time training and
experience, and who in the world has it but us? End troll

-Jim C.

Great troll. We can plan on not cleaning up merges, but then what happens
if we find ourselves across the circle from a MiG without that training?

If you're DCA against marauding hordes of very simple North Korean airplanes
(for example), seeing a merge would be likely. When winchester
AMRAAM's/Phoeny-bombs/Sparrows, it'd be nice for our guys to know how to pop
the other jet in the can with a heater.

Do we really want to stop training to merge clean-up due to that
"un-likeliness" which is based on the last several third world conflicts
against poor air forces with meager numbers? Don't fight the last war.
Plan for the next one.

CAG's and NSAWC preach merge clean up because it's the current game. (Of
course, CAG wants his CVW to look good for lots of reasons.) It's a tough
skill to master, and thus requires some significant training time and
dollars. Of course, admirals want to stop training to it because it costs
money. I think it's worth the investment.

--Woody

doug- Never having flown a two-seat FIGHTER (I'm VA to VFA) I'm speaking out
of
turn here, but stories relayed from my VF to VFA buddies indicate that it's
much easier (given the automation) to perform the fighter mission (and with
greater success) in the Hornet. BRBR

My experience is somewhat 'jaded' as well but coming from all two seat VF to
Adversary, I found that single seat, even in the lowly Dog, paticularly in the
F-16N, was not hard. Situational awareness was not hard, knowing where most of
the 'bad guys' were was not hard,...in many v many scenarios. I think with the
advance of avionics and RHAW, with a very manuverable A/C, single seat will not
degrade the Pilots survival...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

calpin- I think the real crux of the question (and here's the real troll) is
how
many merges will we really see in the future? The old "end of
dogfighting?" issue, revisited yet again. BRBR

In the fog of war, with lots of jets around and suspect ID of which is which, a
VID will become more common, not less and there will be merges, like it or
don't.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer