Hawk Wind

In my experience the wind on the Airglide (even that it does not seem 100% accurate) provides very useful information, I mostly use the difference between the circling wind from XCSoar and the airglide wind. It is most useful flying convergences when you are not near the top part of the convection layer.

My conclusion is that the normal vario ie: the black triangle does not use the inertial platform, the blue ball on the other hand uses both the pneumatic and inertial platform.
I found the blue ball is usually a leading indicator but it is not 100% reliable, yet it can be very useful in certain circumstances.

The people that only listen to the vario (which is what we do 99% of the time) and think the Airglide vario is nothing special are perfectly correct. The sound is the black triangle, often I would prefer it to be on the blue ball but sadly we can't change it.

All in all the Airglide is my prefered vario, it is not a game changer but it is a very high quality device, very intuitive interface, it has all the info needed displayed in a simple and readable format (except for the too small wind arrow) it has a very pleasant tone with a subtle volume increase between tones rather than a harsh on/off plus it has the extra wind and inertial platform that gives the extra info when you dare bringing your eyes inside the cockpit. An Airglide with HUD focussed to horizon would be perfect

I'm wondering if the Hawk upgrade will provide the same results when installed in the LX9000 series as when installed in the S10/S100 vario units. I wouldn't want to pay for an upgrade that works less effectively than intended: I'd rather upgrade the V9 vario to an S100.

My LX9000 already has the AHRS option (payed), so I'm wondering if Hawk will have lower price in this case (but I guess not, as the company says AHRS is a required function, but it may remain "hidden" to the pilot if they don't but that option).

A simpler option would be the Anemoi standalone device. It requires a power supply and simple pneumatic connections to the existing tubings. It will only calculate wind vectors (plus free AHRS), while skipping on the inertial vario functions. All based on similar sensor-fusion technology and extended Kalman filter.

When flying in the mountains, instant wind vector display is an absolute advantage. In the flatland, an averaged calculation may be satisfactory. I used to be a big Zander fan (magnetic compass interface, almost completely free from the unsolvable problems created by flux-gate compasses). Now I'm happy to see a new generation of promising devices.


Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it

On Wednesday, 5 May 2021 at 01:35:20 UTC+3, Aldo Cernezzi wrote:

When flying in the mountains, instant wind vector display is an absolute advantage. In the flatland, an averaged calculation may be satisfactory. I used to be a big Zander fan (magnetic compass interface, almost completely free from the unsolvable problems created by flux-gate compasses). Now I'm happy to see a new generation of promising devices.


Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it

The vector math of calculating instant wind from TAS/GS difference with corresponding flight track is pretty simple. What I don't understand is how to do this unless you have consecutive wind vectors from different directions.. Thus Hawk cannot update wind reading unless glider is in circling flight. Yes there is no problems with compass, but there is no way of determining wind by flying to one direction.

On 5/5/2021 1:38 PM, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 May 2021 at 01:35:20 UTC+3, Aldo Cernezzi wrote:

When flying in the mountains, instant wind vector display is an absolute advantage. In the flatland, an averaged calculation may be satisfactory. I used to be a big Zander fan (magnetic compass interface, almost completely free from the unsolvable problems created by flux-gate compasses). Now I'm happy to see a new generation of promising devices.


Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it

The vector math of calculating instant wind from TAS/GS difference with corresponding flight track is pretty simple. What I don't understand is how to do this unless you have consecutive wind vectors from different directions. Thus Hawk cannot update wind reading unless glider is in circling flight. Yes there is no problems with compass, but there is no way of determining wind by flying to one direction.

Have you read their paper? They are certain they can determine wind without
circling or a compass. I don't pretend to understand the paper, but this portion
from the paper describes how it might be possible:

"The mathematical system theory also answers the question under what conditions
a wind estimation is possible. In the case of a borderline case of an exact
straight flight movement and completely calm air, this is not possible. All
triangles are identical. We (Huang and Meyr) could show, however, that the
random changes in the air movement are sufficient to make the system
"observable.� "

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 00:15:44 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
"The mathematical system theory also answers the question under what conditions
a wind estimation is possible. In the case of a borderline case of an exact
straight flight movement and completely calm air, this is not possible. All
triangles are identical. We (Huang and Meyr) could show, however, that the
random changes in the air movement are sufficient to make the system
"observable.� "
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

For wind vector you need two TAS-GS difference/track vectors. If they are identical (same direction of flight), you have no wind solution (as stated in paper). Optimum would be two vectors with 90 degrees difference, and measured in extremely short duration (this is how Oudie "live wind" tries to do it, though I haven't got it working). This would give an ok solution in circling flight, but at the same time the angular speed while circling is not very high, so sensing wind vector at different parts of thermal is rather slow (on steep turn with AIR Glide S gives you basically 20-25 separate wind measurements with 1 sec average). In straight flight Hawk is relying on miniscule differences in flight track. Instead of two wind vector components with 90 degree difference in direction they have vectors that have only few degrees difference on average. I would love to see someone comparing wind indications of Hawk and Glide S someday.

On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 06:48:03 UTC+1, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 00:15:44 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
"The mathematical system theory also answers the question under what conditions
a wind estimation is possible. In the case of a borderline case of an exact
straight flight movement and completely calm air, this is not possible. All
triangles are identical. We (Huang and Meyr) could show, however, that the
random changes in the air movement are sufficient to make the system
"observable.� "
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
For wind vector you need two TAS-GS difference/track vectors. If they are identical (same direction of flight), you have no wind solution (as stated in paper). Optimum would be two vectors with 90 degrees difference, and measured in extremely short duration (this is how Oudie "live wind" tries to do it, though I haven't got it working). This would give an ok solution in circling flight, but at the same time the angular speed while circling is not very high, so sensing wind vector at different parts of thermal is rather slow (on steep turn with AIR Glide S gives you basically 20-25 separate wind measurements with 1 sec average). In straight flight Hawk is relying on miniscule differences in flight track. Instead of two wind vector components with 90 degree difference in direction they have vectors that have only few degrees difference on average. I would love to see someone comparing wind indications of Hawk and Glide S someday.

Krasw, if you study the paper you will see that your end point is the author's start question i.e. how can you possibly estimate 3D "wind" at high frequency without heading data input from a magnetometer?

The paper is fairly circumspect on the details of what they are doing. Their claim that this hasn't been done before seems disingenuous, given that the Air Vario had been out for a number of years producing (or claiming to produce) a similar result. Air's efforts are described in a university published paper from some years ago. Their methods appear to be similar. But I am glad that someone has taken up the challenge that Air Avionics has now dropped. Whether it is better or worse will require installing both in the panel and flying for awhile. The advantages they expound of knowing the true wind in real time are already well known to anyone with an Air Display S who has paid attention to it.
On Thursday, May 6, 2021 at 1:27:24 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 06:48:03 UTC+1, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 00:15:44 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
"The mathematical system theory also answers the question under what conditions
a wind estimation is possible. In the case of a borderline case of an exact
straight flight movement and completely calm air, this is not possible. All
triangles are identical. We (Huang and Meyr) could show, however, that the
random changes in the air movement are sufficient to make the system
"observable.� "
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
For wind vector you need two TAS-GS difference/track vectors. If they are identical (same direction of flight), you have no wind solution (as stated in paper). Optimum would be two vectors with 90 degrees difference, and measured in extremely short duration (this is how Oudie "live wind" tries to do it, though I haven't got it working). This would give an ok solution in circling flight, but at the same time the angular speed while circling is not very high, so sensing wind vector at different parts of thermal is rather slow (on steep turn with AIR Glide S gives you basically 20-25 separate wind measurements with 1 sec average). In straight flight Hawk is relying on miniscule differences in flight track. Instead of two wind vector components with 90 degree difference in direction they have vectors that have only few degrees difference on average. I would love to see someone comparing wind indications of Hawk and Glide S someday.
Krasw, if you study the paper you will see that your end point is the author's start question i.e. how can you possibly estimate 3D "wind" at high frequency without heading data input from a magnetometer?

On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 4:38:38 PM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 May 2021 at 01:35:20 UTC+3, Aldo Cernezzi wrote:

When flying in the mountains, instant wind vector display is an absolute advantage. In the flatland, an averaged calculation may be satisfactory. I used to be a big Zander fan (magnetic compass interface, almost completely free from the unsolvable problems created by flux-gate compasses). Now I'm happy to see a new generation of promising devices.


Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it
The vector math of calculating instant wind from TAS/GS difference with corresponding flight track is pretty simple. What I don't understand is how to do this unless you have consecutive wind vectors from different directions. Thus Hawk cannot update wind reading unless glider is in circling flight. Yes there is no problems with compass, but there is no way of determining wind by flying to one direction.

Have you heard of "Growth mindset"? I think the appropriate thing to say would have been that you would love to learn how that was achieved, just in case you might be wrong, especially if some very smart people said that they had done it.

Il giorno martedì 4 maggio 2021 alle 10:13:25 UTC+2 Jax ha scritto:

The people that only listen to the vario (which is what we do 99% of the time) and think the Airglide vario is nothing special are perfectly correct.. The sound is the black triangle, often I would prefer it to be on the blue ball but sadly we can't change it.


That's a very interesting observation. Thanks!

Aldo

Marc Förderer once told me that in SC mode, the audio signal reflects the airmass indicator (blue ball). He recommended to set the airmass mixer to 100% inertial, airmass filter to 3.4s and SC filter to 0.

Christoph



Aldo Cernezzi schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Mai 2021 um 00:38:35 UTC+2:
Il giorno martedì 4 maggio 2021 alle 10:13:25 UTC+2 Jax ha scritto:

The people that only listen to the vario (which is what we do 99% of the time) and think the Airglide vario is nothing special are perfectly correct. The sound is the black triangle, often I would prefer it to be on the blue ball but sadly we can't change it.
That's a very interesting observation. Thanks!

Aldo