Once again-Threshold, The Blue Angels Experience

Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Let's see.. "Phantom", (BOTH VERSIONS!), I recognise, Buckeye I recogise, (BUT
COMBAT? The Buckeye is a Navy TRAINER, isn't it?), but what types of pahane
are/were the "Turkey", "Viper" and "Scooter"?
..

(DBurch7672) wrote:

Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Let's see.. "Phantom", (BOTH VERSIONS!), I recognise, Buckeye I recogise, (BUT
COMBAT? The Buckeye is a Navy TRAINER, isn't it?), but what types of pahane
are/were the "Turkey", "Viper" and "Scooter"?

If you recognize two versions of the Phantom, how is it that you don't
recognize the contemporary of one of them, Heinemann's Hot Rod, AKA
Scooter, AKA [and nee] the A4D, later renomenclatured into the A-4?

I'll leave the Turkey and Viper to others. *BUT*. I sincerely hope
you have a broadband connection. You'll need it to download The Saga
of the Combat Buckeye. ;-

[TINS. There I was at 20,000 feet flat on my back, and ...]
--
OJ III
[Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]

On 08 Jan 2004 22:47:58 GMT, (DBurch7672) wrote:

Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Let's see.. "Phantom", (BOTH VERSIONS!), I recognise, Buckeye I recogise, (BUT
COMBAT? The Buckeye is a Navy TRAINER, isn't it?), but what types of pahane
are/were the "Turkey", "Viper" and "Scooter"?
.
Anyone who had flown military trainers will understand the "combat
Buckeye" metaphor. Quite often keeping body and soul together in the
training environment is more difficult than when the enemy is more
clearly defined.

As for Turkey, that's an F-14 Tomcat. Viper, we should recognize as
F-16 (in Navy livery in Top Gun) and Scooter, would be an A-4.

Even a AF coot like moi can see that stuff.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed.

You are right on and if you want to get even more accurate, the Greek AF
used (still may) the T-2 as an attack platform.

We used TPS T-2s for Spin and once in awhile to let off some steam, ACM
platforms.

Jake

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On 08 Jan 2004 22:47:58 GMT, (DBurch7672) wrote:

Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

Let's see.. "Phantom", (BOTH VERSIONS!), I recognise, Buckeye I recogise,
(BUT
COMBAT? The Buckeye is a Navy TRAINER, isn't it?), but what types of
pahane
are/were the "Turkey", "Viper" and "Scooter"?
.
Anyone who had flown military trainers will understand the "combat
Buckeye" metaphor. Quite often keeping body and soul together in the
training environment is more difficult than when the enemy is more
clearly defined.

As for Turkey, that's an F-14 Tomcat. Viper, we should recognize as
F-16 (in Navy livery in Top Gun) and Scooter, would be an A-4.

Even a AF coot like moi can see that stuff.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:46:29 -0600, "Jake Donovan"
wrote:

Ed.

You are right on and if you want to get even more accurate, the Greek AF
used (still may) the T-2 as an attack platform.

We used TPS T-2s for Spin and once in awhile to let off some steam, ACM
platforms.

The USN TPS T-2s, with instructor pilots and crews, make the trek out
to the USAF TPS twice a year to teach the spin syllabus there, too. I
think that the USAF TPS used to use the A-37s for the spin syllabus
before the USN TPS started coming out, but I'm not sure; I know we,
Dryden, spun the T-37, mostly for .practice.

When I was down at TPS running around on the ramp for my flight in the
VISTA F-16, the T-2s were there for this spin training and, in an
amazing coincidence, one of the instructors was one of the few pilots
I knew at Pax, Ricardo. We had a nice visit and I got to look inside
the T-2 after we couldn't start the VISTA FCS because its battery was
dead. The T-2 guys weren't around when I tried to set the F-16
cockpit on fire a day or two later, though.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

The T-2 guys weren't around when I tried to set the F-16 cockpit on fire a
day or two later, though.

A story we'd like you to share with us if you could.

--
Mike Kanze

"Sit by the homely girl, you'll look better by comparison."

- Debra Maffett, Miss America 1983


"Mary Shafer" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:46:29 -0600, "Jake Donovan"
wrote:

Ed.

You are right on and if you want to get even more accurate, the Greek AF
used (still may) the T-2 as an attack platform.

We used TPS T-2s for Spin and once in awhile to let off some steam, ACM
platforms.

The USN TPS T-2s, with instructor pilots and crews, make the trek out
to the USAF TPS twice a year to teach the spin syllabus there, too. I
think that the USAF TPS used to use the A-37s for the spin syllabus
before the USN TPS started coming out, but I'm not sure; I know we,
Dryden, spun the T-37, mostly for .practice.

When I was down at TPS running around on the ramp for my flight in the
VISTA F-16, the T-2s were there for this spin training and, in an
amazing coincidence, one of the instructors was one of the few pilots
I knew at Pax, Ricardo. We had a nice visit and I got to look inside
the T-2 after we couldn't start the VISTA FCS because its battery was
dead. The T-2 guys weren't around when I tried to set the F-16
cockpit on fire a day or two later, though.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

I wonder how a Tweet would do in "combat" with a Buckeye? Anyone ever see
these two go mano a mano?

Advantage Buckeye - it at least has a hook it can use for close quarter combat.

v/r
Gordon
PS, I am aware of the combat records of A-37s, but I mean the trainers

In article ,
nt (Krztalizer) writes:
I wonder how a Tweet would do in "combat" with a Buckeye? Anyone ever see
these two go mano a mano?

Advantage Buckeye - it at least has a hook it can use for close quarter combat.

Haven't seen a T-37/T-2 matchup, but, back in the '70s, I did see a
T-2 and a B-57 go at it up in Yankee 1. (Low Level Training Route in
the White Mountains in New England.) It mostly consisted of the T-2
trying to shake the Iron Cranberry off of its tail. B-57s can _turn_!

I don't know whose T-2 it was - I'd expect it was fron NAS Brunswick,
or NAS South Weymouth, but occasionally Raytheon or Sanders would have
one bailed ot them - The B-57 was from the VT ANG. They were a DSES
(Defense Systems Evaluation Squadron) at the time. The airplane was
in the 1950's Night Intruder gloss Black finish - downright predatory
looking - sort of like Darth Vader chasing Luke Skywalker.


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

On 09 Jan 2004 22:31:10 GMT, nt (Krztalizer) wrote:

I wonder how a Tweet would do in "combat" with a Buckeye? Anyone ever see
these two go mano a mano?

Advantage Buckeye - it at least has a hook it can use for close quarter combat.

Well, the Tweet is decidedly lacking in weapons, so the hook is
probably viable. But if we're just talking maneuverability, I wouldn't
discount the Cessna. That big square wing will flat generate some
turn. The problem would largely be in excess power--ol' P-sub-s.

Once slow, it would be a question of who could keep flying. It would
definitely be a low-speed fight and except for first moves, largely
horizontal. Stall speed of the Tweet, about 72 knots. The wiley Tweet
driver should probably pull the spoiler circuit breaker (those little
panels on the top of the engine intakes that disrupt airflow over the
tail to give stall warning buffet)--that would let you milk another
four or five knots slower. Then, judicious use of flaps to get a bit
more turn rate at yet lower speed.....

Now, if we went with AT-37 with those non-afterburning J85s to replace
the J-69s, then it's no question the Tweet goes vertical and has the
Buckeye for lunch.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Happy New Year Mary!

I was in and out of Edwards so fast that I never got time to give you a
ring.

I almost misread your comment bout A37's. I am either getting lazy eye or
just old. I thought it said T-37s. Yikes!

Did you run into Gallager at TPS? He use to get a real hard time from
students when they found out who his bother was.

Warmest Regards!
Jake

"Mary Shafer" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:46:29 -0600, "Jake Donovan"
wrote:

Ed.

You are right on and if you want to get even more accurate, the Greek AF
used (still may) the T-2 as an attack platform.

We used TPS T-2s for Spin and once in awhile to let off some steam, ACM
platforms.

The USN TPS T-2s, with instructor pilots and crews, make the trek out
to the USAF TPS twice a year to teach the spin syllabus there, too. I
think that the USAF TPS used to use the A-37s for the spin syllabus
before the USN TPS started coming out, but I'm not sure; I know we,
Dryden, spun the T-37, mostly for .practice.

When I was down at TPS running around on the ramp for my flight in the
VISTA F-16, the T-2s were there for this spin training and, in an
amazing coincidence, one of the instructors was one of the few pilots
I knew at Pax, Ricardo. We had a nice visit and I got to look inside
the T-2 after we couldn't start the VISTA FCS because its battery was
dead. The T-2 guys weren't around when I tried to set the F-16
cockpit on fire a day or two later, though.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer