Tomcats gone by fall of 2006

robvr- How much, if any, use would stealth technology be in a visual range
engagement? BRBR

None but it will reduce detection ranges to where visual engagments will occur.
The question is whether or not these costly A/C will be committed during the
day. If the bad guys choose to fight during daylight, then the F-22s and F-35s
will also.

robvr The current doctrine/hype seems to be to shoot BVR before the target
even sees your stealthy plane, whether the target is on the ground or
in the air. I always though that was a bit like the late fifties,
early sixties magic missiles optimism. BRBR


Sure, assuming perfect conditions and perfect GCI, perfect information. Even in
training, on TACTS ranges, this doesn't happen. Don't expect it to happen in
the real thing.

If the bad guys put up hundreds of anything, some will get thru.

I flew an exercise in Egypt, we had nearly perfect GCI, in the F-14, 4 of us,
with working radars. The Egyptians put up 80 Mig 21s..I'll bet you can predict
what happened.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 21 Jun 2004 12:59:26 GMT, Pechs1 wrote:

robvr- How much, if any, use would stealth technology be in a visual range
engagement? BRBR

None but it will reduce detection ranges to where visual engagments will occur.
The question is whether or not these costly A/C will be committed during the
day. If the bad guys choose to fight during daylight, then the F-22s and F-35s
will also.

The Air Force is currently testing a grey F-117 for daylight use so it
looks like the old thinking of stealth only at night is going by the
wayside.

--

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

I flew an exercise in Egypt, we had nearly perfect GCI, in the F-14, 4 of
us,
with working radars. The Egyptians put up 80 Mig 21s..I'll bet you can
predict
what happened.

Hmmm, four Tomcat pilots...I'll predict that when they landed they said
the score was 80 - 0 . How did they get so many planes in the air at the
same time? I would imagine managing airspace would get very tricky about
then!
On a related note, have you read (and have an opinion on) Tom Cooper's
book about the -14 in Iranian service? Lots of Tomcat a-a engagements there
that you don't find in other sources.

Tony

Tony- Hmmm, four Tomcat pilots...I'll predict that when they landed they said
the score was 80 - 0 . How did they get so many planes in the air at the
same time? I would imagine managing airspace would get very tricky about
then! BRBR

It was a simulated strike of their airfield and the final idea was to get gun
camera film of a Turkey.

It was supposed to be a 4v4, it wasn't.

The Egyptian military really owned everything back then, they could do whatever
they wished. I went to Alexandria for a ROE brief, the only building that
wasn't falling down was the EAF building. We lowly 0-4s were met by an
auditorium of Mig pilots, many general officers with many kills during the two
Israeli wars in 1967 and 1973.

tony- Tom Cooper's
book about the -14 in Iranian service? BRBR


Nope, won't.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

"Pechs1" wrote in message
...
robvr- How much, if any, use would stealth technology be in a visual
range
engagement? BRBR

None but it will reduce detection ranges to where visual engagments will
occur.
The question is whether or not these costly A/C will be committed during
the
day. If the bad guys choose to fight during daylight, then the F-22s and
F-35s
will also.

robvr The current doctrine/hype seems to be to shoot BVR before the
target
even sees your stealthy plane, whether the target is on the ground or
in the air. I always though that was a bit like the late fifties,
early sixties magic missiles optimism. BRBR


Sure, assuming perfect conditions and perfect GCI, perfect information.
Even in
training, on TACTS ranges, this doesn't happen. Don't expect it to happen
in
the real thing.

If the bad guys put up hundreds of anything, some will get thru.

I flew an exercise in Egypt, we had nearly perfect GCI, in the F-14, 4 of
us,
with working radars. The Egyptians put up 80 Mig 21s..I'll bet you can
predict
what happened.

A short and glorious battle?
Run away?

At least it was a target rich environment.

John- A short and glorious battle?
Run away?

At least it was a target rich environment.
BRBR

We dropped our drawers and wallowed around with these guys. Geez, there were
Mig-21s everywhere, probably looked like flys around a trash can.

Great fun and of course we didn't run away. We then went over to the Pyramids,
took some pix and then got into hack for being over the pyramids. Weren't
supposed to fly over them. Oh well, got a great pic tho by my wingy.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer