Sea Story For Woody

Woody,

The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
course).

Clearly, Murphy-san was on duty that day.

Some random rhetoricals, all made without any knowledge of the situational
details:

* Thoroughness of the brief? (Especially when more than one language is
involved.)
* Right training device for the exercise?
* Pre-exercise affirmative demonstrated knowledge of range safety procedures
by all involved - in English?
* Cockpit indications of being high-PRF painted BEFORE the "in hot" call?
(If I had seen high-PRF before "in hot" I would have broken off immediately
and started shouting on Guard.)
* Wx and viz conditions appropriate to the exercise?
* And so on...

The answers are there, and you don't need the Home Depot guy to find them.

--
Mike Kanze

"If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing
again."

- NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi
Berra Award.)


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 9/8/04 1:16 PM, in article , "Mike
Kanze" wrote:

Woody,

I remember reading about this one, although not in the detail you shared.
IIRC, wasn't this the very last A-6 operational loss?

Owl's rant on target-towing: It's bad enough when humans are aiming the
guns. GMGSN Murphy - and his JMSDF equivalent - crews every battery. To
someone like me schooled in the quirks of radars and black boxes it's
just
plain lunacy to send a manned aircraft past a hot CIWS. You KNOW the
radar's gonna go for the most significant return up there. From time to
time this won't be the TDU. In Rooster's case it was that big ol' flying
drumstick.

Good rant.

The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
course). THEN and only then was the ship permitted to arm the gun and
take
the targeting radar out of standby--at least that's the way I understood
the
process.

Obviously, the knucklehead-sans on the Yuguuri (?) didn't totally
understand
the process. We took revenge later by taking out one of their fishing
traulers with a sub.

The concept of the mission did make the hair stand up on the back of my
neck
a bit, but I personally never had a bad experience with it, and I don't
remember of any other except for this one. These days, I think they use
contracted Lears to do the job. I've never seen a pod mounted on an S-3
or
a Hornet.

As an aside, I know that the CIWS was a really good shot. I never reeled
a
target back in.


Or maybe this was just payback to the account of someone's WWII-era
ancestor.

Last I heard, Rooster was flying for United.

Hope Rooster has a secure alternative for his pension.

Owl sends.

Amen.

--Woody

In article , Mike Kanze
wrote:

Woody,

The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
course).

Clearly, Murphy-san was on duty that day.

Some random rhetoricals, all made without any knowledge of the situational
details:

snipped

* Cockpit indications of being high-PRF painted BEFORE the "in hot" call?
(If I had seen high-PRF before "in hot" I would have broken off immediately
and started shouting on Guard.)

snipped

The answers are there, and you don't need the Home Depot guy to find them.

Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond
the ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other
fighitng drumstick the Prowler)
Pugs

Pugs,

Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond the
ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other fighitng
drumstick the Prowler)

Wouldn't surprise me.

Add to my list of rhetoricals:

* Can we effectively counter our OWN weapons in a training situation - or
otherwise?

Not an idle question, given the propensity for our stuff to wind up in other
folks' hands - like A-4s to the Argentines (the Brits must have loved us for
that one), Stingers to the Afghan guerillas or F-14s to the Shah.

Example: During the VN war, a barely feet-dry A-6B pickled a Shrike at a
NVN SAM site. The Shrike made for the juiciest emitter it could detect -
which was NOT the FanSong but the PIRAZ small boy sitting out in the Gulf of
Tonkin. Only the quick action of RED CROWN shutting down all its radars
saved it. This incident led to the "no turn shots" rule which the A-6Bs
followed from thereafter. (The passage of time has made me fuzzy on the
precise details of this one. Better info invited.)

Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. g

--
Mike Kanze

"If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing
again."

- NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi
Berra Award.)


"Allen Epps" wrote in message
et...
In article , Mike Kanze
wrote:

Woody,

The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot
until
after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
course).

Clearly, Murphy-san was on duty that day.

Some random rhetoricals, all made without any knowledge of the
situational
details:

snipped

* Cockpit indications of being high-PRF painted BEFORE the "in hot" call?
(If I had seen high-PRF before "in hot" I would have broken off
immediately
and started shouting on Guard.)

snipped

The answers are there, and you don't need the Home Depot guy to find
them.

Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond
the ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other
fighitng drumstick the Prowler)
Pugs

Mike Kanze wrote:
Pugs,


Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond the
ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other fighitng
drumstick the Prowler)


Wouldn't surprise me.

Add to my list of rhetoricals:

* Can we effectively counter our OWN weapons in a training situation - or
otherwise?

Not an idle question, given the propensity for our stuff to wind up in other
folks' hands - like A-4s to the Argentines (the Brits must have loved us for
that one), Stingers to the Afghan guerillas or F-14s to the Shah.

Example: During the VN war, a barely feet-dry A-6B pickled a Shrike at a
NVN SAM site. The Shrike made for the juiciest emitter it could detect -
which was NOT the FanSong but the PIRAZ small boy sitting out in the Gulf of
Tonkin. Only the quick action of RED CROWN shutting down all its radars
saved it. This incident led to the "no turn shots" rule which the A-6Bs
followed from thereafter. (The passage of time has made me fuzzy on the
precise details of this one. Better info invited.)

Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. g

Hmm, I thought I saw som kind of optronic device on recent pictures of
one of the latest blocks; A recent addition I'm sure, but is that for
the gunners mate, or autonomus-mode operation?

/Morten
Harpoon 4 boardgame affectionado, no real experience whatsoever

On 9/9/04 5:50 PM, in article ,
"Morten Lund" wrote:

Mike Kanze wrote:
Pugs,
SNIP

Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. g

Hmm, I thought I saw som kind of optronic device on recent pictures of
one of the latest blocks; A recent addition I'm sure, but is that for
the gunners mate, or autonomus-mode operation?

/Morten
Harpoon 4 boardgame affectionado, no real experience whatsoever

I've never seen one with a lens on it.

--Woody

Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal wrote:

On 9/9/04 5:50 PM, in article ,
"Morten Lund" wrote:


Mike Kanze wrote:

Pugs,

SNIP

Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. g

Hmm, I thought I saw som kind of optronic device on recent pictures of
one of the latest blocks; A recent addition I'm sure, but is that for
the gunners mate, or autonomus-mode operation?

/Morten
Harpoon 4 boardgame affectionado, no real experience whatsoever


I've never seen one with a lens on it.

--Woody


I found one at this Loc; At least I *think* its some kind of optronic
device, could be laser for all I know

http://www.jenswilly.dk/graphics/jaas_imgs/phalanx.gif

(never mind the content of the parent page, its a spoof on a fictious
nuclear powercompany - long story, but extremely funny)

Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal wrote:
On 9/9/04 5:50 PM, in article ,
"Morten Lund" wrote:


Mike Kanze wrote:

Pugs,

SNIP

Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. g

Hmm, I thought I saw som kind of optronic device on recent pictures of
one of the latest blocks; A recent addition I'm sure, but is that for
the gunners mate, or autonomus-mode operation?

/Morten
Harpoon 4 boardgame affectionado, no real experience whatsoever


I've never seen one with a lens on it.

A few of them have a FLIR mod, I suppose the plan is for all of them
eventually.

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/.../wep-phal.html

I think the first time I saw one with this was only a couple years ago.

On 9/10/04 1:54 AM, in article , "Jim
Carriere" wrote:

Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal wrote:
On 9/9/04 5:50 PM, in article ,
"Morten Lund" wrote:


Mike Kanze wrote:

Pugs,

SNIP

Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. g

Hmm, I thought I saw som kind of optronic device on recent pictures of
one of the latest blocks; A recent addition I'm sure, but is that for
the gunners mate, or autonomus-mode operation?

/Morten
Harpoon 4 boardgame affectionado, no real experience whatsoever


I've never seen one with a lens on it.

A few of them have a FLIR mod, I suppose the plan is for all of them
eventually.

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/.../wep-phal.html

I think the first time I saw one with this was only a couple years ago.


A little internet research suggests that the reason I haven't seen it is
because it's not on CV's yet. Looks like the FLIR/optics are for surface
targets and that as of about a year ago, it's only been on small boys.

--Woody

Mike Kanze wrote:

Pugs,

Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond the
ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other fighitng
drumstick the Prowler)

Wouldn't surprise me.

Add to my list of rhetoricals:

* Can we effectively counter our OWN weapons in a training situation - or
otherwise?

Not an idle question, given the propensity for our stuff to wind up in other
folks' hands - like A-4s to the Argentines (the Brits must have loved us for
that one), Stingers to the Afghan guerillas or F-14s to the Shah.

Example: During the VN war, a barely feet-dry A-6B pickled a Shrike at a
NVN SAM site. The Shrike made for the juiciest emitter it could detect -
which was NOT the FanSong but the PIRAZ small boy sitting out in the Gulf of
Tonkin. Only the quick action of RED CROWN shutting down all its radars
saved it. This incident led to the "no turn shots" rule which the A-6Bs
followed from thereafter. (The passage of time has made me fuzzy on the
precise details of this one. Better info invited.)

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same incident, but Worden was nailed by
a Shrike in the GoT in 1972. Mission-killed her but good; I think it took her
several hours to get a radar up. Some years back I was taking a tour of her
during SF Fleet Week. The tour guide happened to be a radar ET whose job was
maintaining the SPG-55s. I'd read about the incident before this so asked him
if anyone on the ship was aware of it. He said, oh sure, it was part of the
ship's history, and there were still dents in the back of some of the SPG-55
housings from the attack.

I've always wondered if the Shrike was going for the S-band SPS-48 or the C-band
SPS-10 or SPG-55. Guess it depends what flavor of Fansong was in the area.

Guy

"Mike Kanze" wrote...

The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's course).

Clearly, Murphy-san was on duty that day.

I spent 3 years towing targets at in A-4s at VC-8 in the late 70s, and a little
bit in A-6s at VA-165 in the late 80s. We briefed with all sorts of NATO ships
shooting all sorts of guns. IIRC, CIWS was just in OPEVAL while I was at VC-8,
and we were among the first to drag TDUs for them. I've only seen or heard of a
couple early shots (none with CIWS, except that Japanese one) in all that
time...

Some random rhetoricals, all made without any knowledge of the situational
details:

* Thoroughness of the brief? (Especially when more than one language is
involved.)

Probably not a factor. The early shots I am familiar with were after briefings
just as thorough as any other. More likely a cowboy gun boss or Ops O.


* Pre-exercise affirmative demonstrated knowledge of range safety procedures
by all involved - in English?

Again, not usually a factor. All exercises I participated in had
English-speaking attendees for all briefings. Things like "Don't shoot until
the aircraft calls 'Cleared to fire'!" and accompanying diagrams on the
chalkboard showing the tow airplane overhead the ship were standard and well
understood.


* And so on...

The answers are there, and you don't need the Home Depot guy to find them.

I haven't read the report of the Japanese incident, but it was an anomaly if
those were factors.