Ice meteors, climate, sceptics

Brian Sandle wrote in message ...
Eric Hocking wrote:
snip

Sorry to drop in out of lurking, but I always found it amusing to
watch ET cropcircle proponents squirm when I pointed out at
sci.skeptic that;

During the foot and mouth disease outbreak in the UK in 2001 the
government closed all countryside footpaths, effectively blocking any
but the farmer from crop fields.

During the ban no crop circles were recorded in the English
countryside.

The first crop circle in England to be recorded was the day after the
walking ban was lifted in that county.

Very community minded is our ET.

Any decent scientist knows
(a) correlation is not causation

Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between
lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in
British crops.

(b) to check the data.

Ah, let's just do that shall we?

(a) About 90% of the walkways were open in September 1991 in Britain.

Since I specifically stated 2001, what has this to do with my post?
Feb 27 2001 announcement on footpath closures.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/newsrel/2001/010227d.htm

Linkname: CropCircleInvestigated
URL: http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/Cro...estigated.html

snip

So that they occurred world over again at the end of foot and mouth in
Britain may or may not be just a coincidence.

I did not say worldwide - I quite specifically said "English" circles.
The fact remains that the first cropcircles to appear in BRITAIN, were
found and probably created (as per the cropcircle database site) in
late/end of May. Just as the FMD footpath restrictions were being
eased.

So, what caused the cessation of circlemaking in Britain that year?
Surely footpath closures wouldn't have had any effect on airborne ET?
The only restriction was on *human* access on the ground to crop
fields. I'm sure it's purely coincidental that the lifting of those
restrictions correlate with the first appearance of new circles in
May.

(b) Though I now confound myself somewhat by giving this:

Linkname: Weird Wiltshire - Crop Circles - News Archive
URL:
http://www.thisispewsey.co.uk/wiltsh...rd/231001.html


First published on October 23
THE foot and mouth epidemic may have hampered the search for crop circles
in Wiltshire's corn fields but the people who spend time looking for them
still managed to record some incredible formations.

All created in May after the FMD restrictions were eased. This as per
the cropcircle database site:
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=April
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May

[...]
In spite of the foot and mouth restrictions which meant that the croppies
had to keep away from fields and could not fly overland,

The above statement seems to imply that circles *might* have been
created prior to May 2001, but the croppies were unable to find them
merely due to to the fact that they were not allowed to do air
searches. That's patently untrue as per the Hansard record of May 9
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200001/cmhansrd/vo010509/text/10509w19.htm
The aviation bans were that you could not fly *below* 500ft over
infected land or *below* 1000ft over the livestock cremation sites.
There was nothing to stop croppies flying over at 1500ft plus scouring
for circles.

So to claim that there *might* have been circles created before May is
moot, since they can't prove it happened and I can't prove it didn't.

about 40
formations were officially recorded in Wiltshire.

The NUMBER of circles is irrelevant, it is WHEN they appeared. Here's
part of my post from 2001, one of the council links is dead and see
this link for May 2001
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May

"This is the Hampshire County Council notice regarding F&M
http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/footmouth.html
Guess when it's dated? You got it 11 May. It links to an emergency
plan for
Hants: http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/scudamore.html
dated March.

And of course, the first one in England turned up in? Hampshire - on
May
16. http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01ab

When Wiltshire opened up
http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/download...411_order.html

Lo and Behold! A crop circle turns up in Wiltshire.
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01aq "


Not sure how they did it.

Waited in the pub until walking restrictions were lifted?

--
Eric Hocking
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" - P.J. O'Rourke.
http://www.twofromoz.freeserve.co.uk

Eric Hocking wrote:
Brian Sandle wrote in message ...
Eric Hocking wrote:
snip

Sorry to drop in out of lurking, but I always found it amusing to
watch ET cropcircle proponents squirm when I pointed out at
sci.skeptic that;

During the foot and mouth disease outbreak in the UK in 2001 the
government closed all countryside footpaths, effectively blocking any
but the farmer from crop fields.

During the ban no crop circles were recorded in the English
countryside.

The first crop circle in England to be recorded was the day after the
walking ban was lifted in that county.

Very community minded is our ET.

Any decent scientist knows
(a) correlation is not causation

Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between
lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in
British crops.

(b) to check the data.

Ah, let's just do that shall we?

(a) About 90% of the walkways were open in September 1991 in Britain.

Since I specifically stated 2001, what has this to do with my post?

I meant 2001. It was in an offical PDF file which I cannot find again, with
the history of F&MD.

Feb 27 2001 announcement on footpath closures.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/newsrel/2001/010227d.htm

Linkname: CropCircleInvestigated
URL: http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/Cro...estigated.html

snip

So that they occurred world over again at the end of foot and mouth in
Britain may or may not be just a coincidence.

I did not say worldwide - I quite specifically said "English" circles.

But I am pointing out it could be world wide.

The fact remains that the first cropcircles to appear in BRITAIN, were
found and probably created (as per the cropcircle database site) in
late/end of May. Just as the FMD footpath restrictions were being
eased.

Search your database for any country April 2001, there is only one result,
and that is an acknowledged art work.

So, what caused the cessation of circlemaking in Britain that year?
Surely footpath closures wouldn't have had any effect on airborne ET?
The only restriction was on *human* access on the ground to crop
fields. I'm sure it's purely coincidental that the lifting of those
restrictions correlate with the first appearance of new circles in
May.

They started appearing world over in May.

(b) Though I now confound myself somewhat by giving this:

Linkname: Weird Wiltshire - Crop Circles - News Archive
URL:
http://www.thisispewsey.co.uk/wiltsh...rd/231001.html


First published on October 23
THE foot and mouth epidemic may have hampered the search for crop circles
in Wiltshire's corn fields but the people who spend time looking for them
still managed to record some incredible formations.

All created in May after the FMD restrictions were eased.

That is correlation not proven causation.

This as per
the cropcircle database site:
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=April
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May

[...]
In spite of the foot and mouth restrictions which meant that the croppies
had to keep away from fields and could not fly overland,

The above statement seems to imply that circles *might* have been
created prior to May 2001, but the croppies were unable to find them
merely due to to the fact that they were not allowed to do air
searches. That's patently untrue as per the Hansard record of May 9
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200001/cmhansrd/vo010509/text/10509w19.htm
The aviation bans were that you could not fly *below* 500ft over
infected land or *below* 1000ft over the livestock cremation sites.
There was nothing to stop croppies flying over at 1500ft plus scouring
for circles.

Maybe they misunderstood.

So to claim that there *might* have been circles created before May is
moot, since they can't prove it happened and I can't prove it didn't.

You like the correlation, and searching world wide back to Nov 2000 there are
very few. Just a couple on ice, one reported on ice too thin to walk on.


about 40
formations were officially recorded in Wiltshire.

The NUMBER of circles is irrelevant, it is WHEN they appeared. Here's
part of my post from 2001, one of the council links is dead and see
this link for May 2001
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May

"This is the Hampshire County Council notice regarding F&M
http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/footmouth.html
Guess when it's dated? You got it 11 May. It links to an emergency
plan for
Hants: http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/scudamore.html
dated March.

And of course, the first one in England turned up in? Hampshire - on
May
16. http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01ab

When Wiltshire opened up
http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/download...411_order.html

Lo and Behold! A crop circle turns up in Wiltshire.
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01aq "


Not sure how they did it.

Waited in the pub until walking restrictions were lifted?

Somewhere I read it is admitted that some farmers create them as they get
grants for people to come on to their land.

Then the scientific tests should be different.

Brian Sandle wrote:
Eric Hocking wrote:


Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between
lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in
British crops.

http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/database/index.html

then go to foot and mouth.

2001 has very similar figures for April as 2000 and 2002.

The topic has diverged from anything meteorological. Please
drop sci.geo.meteorology from the list. Thank you.

Brian Sandle wrote:
Brian Sandle wrote:

Eric Hocking wrote:



Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between
lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in
British crops.


http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/database/index.html

then go to foot and mouth.

2001 has very similar figures for April as 2000 and 2002.

Dennis M. Rodgers wrote:
The topic has diverged from anything meteorological. Please
drop sci.geo.meteorology from the list. Thank you.

Grant suggested that ice meteors be in the crop circle category of fakes.

But are they fakes, for if they aren't all then that argument may have to
be ruled out.

No-one has commented on polar stratospheric cloud. Grant pointed out how
thin the atmosphere is there. They occur in the winter. Maybe conditions
are sufficient to make clouds of water from cometary fragments. Can any
large fragments get through?

We touched on vortices. Vortex theory was advanced by Kelvin and Thomson,
but superceded by the particle theory, though particles were found to have
spin. Maybe spin can have a laser effect. Sorry about the dreaming. The
simple wind vortices would seem to produce too irregular a form to be
recognised as a crop circle.

Is there any theory of how smoke rings can bounce off one another, and can
that happen with any atmospheric clouds?

Dennis M. Rodgers wrote:
The topic has diverged from anything meteorological. Please
drop sci.geo.meteorology from the list. Thank you.

Grant suggested that ice meteors be in the crop circle category of fakes.

But are they fakes, for if they aren't all then that argument may have to
be ruled out.

No-one has commented on polar stratospheric cloud. Grant pointed out how
thin the atmosphere is there. They occur in the winter. Maybe conditions
are sufficient to make clouds of water from cometary fragments. Can any
large fragments get through?

We touched on vortices. Vortex theory was advanced by Kelvin and Thomson,
but superceded by the particle theory, though particles were found to have
spin. Maybe spin can have a laser effect. Sorry about the dreaming. The
simple wind vortices would seem to produce too irregular a form to be
recognised as a crop circle.

Is there any theory of how smoke rings can bounce off one another, and can
that happen with any atmospheric clouds?

Brian Sandle wrote:

No-one has commented on polar stratospheric cloud. Grant pointed out how
thin the atmosphere is there. They occur in the winter. Maybe conditions
are sufficient to make clouds of water from cometary fragments. Can any
large fragments get through?

We touched on vortices. Vortex theory was advanced by Kelvin and Thomson,
but superceded by the particle theory, though particles were found to have
spin. Maybe spin can have a laser effect. Sorry about the dreaming. The
simple wind vortices would seem to produce too irregular a form to be
recognised as a crop circle.

Is there any theory of how smoke rings can bounce off one another, and can
that happen with any atmospheric clouds?

Grant said that if vortices were present which could form ice meteors then
there would be clouds, too. But is it possible to have in the upper
atmosphere a wind sort of like the Antarctic katabatic, 350 km/hr with a
clear sky?

What is the velocity of wind in the clear air turbulence which affects
aircraft?

[sci.g.meteorology dropped from follow-ups]

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Brian Sandle wrote:
Eric Hocking wrote:

Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between
lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in
British crops.

http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/database/index.html

then go to foot and mouth.

2001 has very similar figures for April as 2000 and 2002.

Hmm, 3 in April 2000, 0 in April 2001 and 1 in 2002.
Noted the 2001 was by an artist. The comments on the next two are amusing
"Very amateurish looking" and "Fairly rough looking". Must have been
apprentice aliens trying it out for the first time!

As you suggested I do in an earlier post, check the data. Go also to the
county news releases on when and where the blanket bans were lifted and then
have a look at when and where the circles started to appear in 2001.

By limiting yourself to a single resource, you're not getting the whole
picture and limit the points of view you can put forward. In counter to the
cropcircleresearch site http://www.circlemakers.org/ specifically
http://www.circlemakers.org/totc2001.html for their 2001 round up.

--
Eric Hocking
www.twofromoz.freeserve.co.uk
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Attempting spam blocking - remove upper case to reply.

Eric Hocking wrote:
[sci.g.meteorology dropped from follow-ups]

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Brian Sandle wrote:
Eric Hocking wrote:

Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between
lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in
British crops.

http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/database/index.html

then go to foot and mouth.

2001 has very similar figures for April as 2000 and 2002.

Hmm, 3 in April 2000, 0 in April 2001 and 1 in 2002.

Go to the table I have made in the FMD & Cropcircles thread and see
if you think that there is much statistically between 0 and the
average of 1 & 3. for April, given the May picture over those years.

Noted the 2001 was by an artist. The comments on the next two are amusing
"Very amateurish looking" and "Fairly rough looking". Must have been
apprentice aliens trying it out for the first time!

Do the human circle makers improve with experience?

As you suggested I do in an earlier post, check the data.

Now I have posted the table.

Go also to the
county news releases on when and where the blanket bans were lifted and then
have a look at when and where the circles started to appear in 2001.

You might help with that. I already showed
13 May Hampshire -- still in F&M territory.
22 May Dorset
25 May Wiltshire started, but no more for 3 days, then 5 there.
29 May Hertsfordshire



By limiting yourself to a single resource, you're not getting the whole
picture and limit the points of view you can put forward. In counter to the
cropcircleresearch site http://www.circlemakers.org/ specifically
http://www.circlemakers.org/totc2001.html for their 2001 round up.


Can't get much out of that.

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Eric Hocking wrote:
[sci.g.meteorology dropped from follow-ups]
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Brian Sandle wrote:
Eric Hocking wrote:
Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between
lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in
British crops.

http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/database/index.html

then go to foot and mouth.

2001 has very similar figures for April as 2000 and 2002.

Hmm, 3 in April 2000, 0 in April 2001 and 1 in 2002.

Go to the table I have made in the FMD & Cropcircles thread and see
if you think that there is much statistically between 0 and the
average of 1 & 3. for April, given the May picture over those years.

I addressed it there. So you are saying that there is NO statistical
difference between the years?

Noted the 2001 was by an artist. The comments on the next two are
amusing
"Very amateurish looking" and "Fairly rough looking". Must have been
apprentice aliens trying it out for the first time!

Do the human circle makers improve with experience?

The designs have certainly become more elaborate over the years, so, yes.

As you suggested I do in an earlier post, check the data.
Now I have posted the table.

Which I have addressed.

Go also to the
county news releases on when and where the blanket bans were lifted and
then
have a look at when and where the circles started to appear in 2001.

You might help with that. I already showed
13 May Hampshire -- still in F&M territory.

Not this particular one, no, it was not in a controlled area in Hampshire at
the time.

22 May Dorset

Next to Bournemouth International Airport - where there are no footpaths
needed to access the field, only a main road.

25 May Wiltshire started, but no more for 3 days, then 5 there.

This was below the Pewsey White Horse which also does not require footpath
access as the field is next to a road.

29 May Hertsfordshire

Again, in a field next to the B655 - no footpath access required.

By limiting yourself to a single resource, you're not getting the whole
picture and limit the points of view you can put forward. In counter to
the
cropcircleresearch site http://www.circlemakers.org/ specifically
http://www.circlemakers.org/totc2001.html for their 2001 round up.

Can't get much out of that.

You got your weather argument out of it - unfortunately this disagrees with
your contention that there is NO difference between 2001 and the years
preceding and following it.

--
Eric Hocking
www.twofromoz.freeserve.co.uk
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Attempting spam blocking - remove upper case to reply.