I like my privatized airport :)

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...


This is not a non-radar environment. Radar services are provided by
Clarksburg Approach, they're just 24 miles southwest of MGW. Examine the
ILS RWY 18 approach, note that DIXIN can be determined by radar or the
marker beacon. That tells us radar coverage is good in this area.


It is indeed a non-radar environment when the pilot is talking to MGW tower.
Clarksburg can indeed identify DIXIN by special request of the pilot, but
the much more routine procedure is for Clarksburg to hand the pilot off to
Morgantown Tower outside of DIXIN and then Morgantown Tower asks the pilot
to report DIXIN inbound, at which time a landing clearance is issued.
Morgantown Tower has no radar capability.


MGW is a VFR tower, they don't "own" any airspace. Airway MEAs that cross
MGW VORTAC run 4000 to 5000 MSL, so any enroute IFR traffic would likely
be
well above the 3700 MSL top of the MGW Class D airspace.

The MEA is 3000 feet; planes could well be enroute at that altitude due to
icing or planning to land at other local airports or for other reasons.


The tower controller probably isn't applying any separation at all, he's
probably just relaying the clearance he received from Clarksburg approach.
I'm not saying ATC didn't make an error here, I'm just saying he didn't
necessarily make the error you think he did. There may have been a

You are correct that the error could well have been by MGW tower or by
Clarksburg. Whatever the cause, it is clear that a left turn after takeoff
should never be considered an option departing MGW Runway 18 in IMC. So
this is an excellent example of CFIT avoidance and the importance of pilots
not delegating terrain avoidance solely to ATC on departure.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

It is indeed a non-radar environment when the pilot is talking to MGW
tower.


Negative. It is a non-radar environment only when the radar is out of
service. It doesn't matter who the pilot is talking to.



The MEA is 3000 feet; planes could well be enroute at that altitude due to
icing or planning to land at other local airports or for other reasons.


Negative. There is no MEA below 4000 feet at MGW.



You are correct that the error could well have been by MGW tower or by
Clarksburg.


Or by you. Without knowing exactly what was said we cannot know what error
was made.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

Negative. It is a non-radar environment only when the radar is out of
service. It doesn't matter who the pilot is talking to.

You are correct that pilots are not told "Radar Service Terminated" on the
ILS 18 to MGW. As a practical matter, though, only under special
circumstances could/would they coordinate with Clarksburg to vector
airplanes talking to MGW tower. As a practical matter, Morgantown Tower
relies upon pilot position reporting for separation.

Negative. There is no MEA below 4000 feet at MGW.

Then how is it that I routinely execute instrument approaches at MGW and
then proceed IFR at 3000 feet to my very nearby home base of KWAY to see if
I can land visually at KWAY?

Or by you. Without knowing exactly what was said we cannot know what
error
was made.

Can you please tell me what IFR clearance taking off from MGW Runway 18
could appropriately contain the words "On Departure turn Left"?


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

You are correct that pilots are not told "Radar Service Terminated" on the
ILS 18 to MGW.


Earlier you said Morgantown Tower has no radar capability. What did you
base that on? If arriving aircraft are not being told "Radar Service
Terminated" it's probably because the tower has a BRITE scope, as would be
expected of a VFR tower that close to an ASR.



As a practical matter, though, only under special
circumstances could/would they coordinate with Clarksburg to vector
airplanes talking to MGW tower. As a practical matter, Morgantown Tower
relies upon pilot position reporting for separation.


Morgantown tower is a VFR tower. They provide runway separation.
Clarksburg approach provides IFR separation.



Then how is it that I routinely execute instrument approaches at MGW and
then proceed IFR at 3000 feet to my very nearby home base of KWAY to see
if I can land visually at KWAY?


An MEA is the lowest published altitude between radio fixes which assures
acceptable navigational signal coverage and meets obstacle clearance
requirements between those fixes. Morgantown Municipal Airport and Greene
County Airport are not radio fixes, and there is no published altitude
between them. Off-airways operations would be subject to the MVA when
Clarksburg approach is open and the MIA when Cleveland ARTCC takes the
airspace.

How is it one can become a CFII without knowing what an MEA is?

If the minimum altitude for IFR operations in the WAY area is 3000 MSL,
what's the point of executing an instrument approach at MGW to get into WAY?
An instrument approach is needed to descend beneath the minimum altitude for
enroute operations, not to descend down to it.



Can you please tell me what IFR clearance taking off from MGW Runway 18
could appropriately contain the words "On Departure turn Left"?


You're illustrating why we need a verbatim transcript of the communications.
Previously you said the instruction was "Cleared for Takeoff -- Turn Left on
Course", now you say it was "On Departure turn Left". To determine if an
error was made we need to know what was said and without a transcript we
don't know what was said.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

Earlier you said Morgantown Tower has no radar capability. What did you
base that on? If arriving aircraft are not being told "Radar Service

MGW Tower routinely seems to not know where I am located when I call in on
the approach. They will sometimes, for example, ask me to "Report DIXIN
Inbound" when I am already inside DIXIN; if they saw me on radar they would
not ask for such a report.

If the minimum altitude for IFR operations in the WAY area is 3000 MSL,
what's the point of executing an instrument approach at MGW to get into
WAY?
An instrument approach is needed to descend beneath the minimum altitude
for
enroute operations, not to descend down to it.

The MVA is indeed 3000 MSL in the WAY area. So as mentioned in an earlier
posting IFR traffic could be at 3000 MSL in the MGW area and thus
conflicting with the departure procedure from MGW runway 18.

One reason why I might execute an approach at MGW to get into WAY would be
in the winter if I anticipate possible icing in the descent and I want the
option to land at MGW if I accumulate ice vs. continue to WAY if I am
ice-free. Full flaps are not permitted on my airplane after I have
encountered icing conditions, and I would much prefer to execute such a
landing straight-in out of an ILS to the 5000 foot runway at MGW rather than
to fly a traffic pattern around WAY and land on its 3500 foot, slightly
sloping runway.

Another reason why I might execute an approach at MGW to get into WAY is to
get a sense of whether I am likely to be able to complete a visual approach
to WAY. Circling WAY at 3000 feet I might be able to see straight down to
the airport yet forward visibility might be reduced when I start a visual
approach to WAY; the only way to get below 3000 feet at WAY is to cancel
IFR, so I could find myself IMC on a VFR flight plan below radar and radio
reception altitudes. I have found that a better plan is to execute the ILS
into MGW and then decide if the weather will allow me to proceed IFR to WAY
or if I should instead land at MGW.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

MGW Tower routinely seems to not know where I am located when I call in on
the approach. They will sometimes, for example, ask me to "Report DIXIN
Inbound" when I am already inside DIXIN; if they saw me on radar they
would
not ask for such a report.


You said pilots are not told "Radar Service Terminated" on the ILS 18 to
MGW. If Morgantown does not have radar then pilots should be told that
radar service is terminated.



The MVA is indeed 3000 MSL in the WAY area.


How do you know?



So as mentioned in an earlier
posting IFR traffic could be at 3000 MSL in the MGW area and thus
conflicting with the departure procedure from MGW runway 18.


Enroute traffic is typically kept higher for that very reason.



One reason why I might execute an approach at MGW to get into WAY would be
in the winter if I anticipate possible icing in the descent and I want the
option to land at MGW if I accumulate ice vs. continue to WAY if I am
ice-free. Full flaps are not permitted on my airplane after I have
encountered icing conditions, and I would much prefer to execute such a
landing straight-in out of an ILS to the 5000 foot runway at MGW rather
than
to fly a traffic pattern around WAY and land on its 3500 foot, slightly
sloping runway.

Another reason why I might execute an approach at MGW to get into WAY is
to
get a sense of whether I am likely to be able to complete a visual
approach
to WAY. Circling WAY at 3000 feet I might be able to see straight down to
the airport yet forward visibility might be reduced when I start a visual
approach to WAY; the only way to get below 3000 feet at WAY is to cancel
IFR, so I could find myself IMC on a VFR flight plan below radar and radio
reception altitudes. I have found that a better plan is to execute the
ILS
into MGW and then decide if the weather will allow me to proceed IFR to
WAY
or if I should instead land at MGW.


So executing an instrument approach at MGW has nothing to do with proceeding
IFR to WAY then? It's just to get a check on the weather? You fly the
approach, miss, and then climb to the MVA and proceed to WAY?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news
You said pilots are not told "Radar Service Terminated" on the ILS 18 to
MGW. If Morgantown does not have radar then pilots should be told that
radar service is terminated.

That is a valid point and something which I agree would be helpful for me to
clarify.... I will ask Morgantown tower directly next time I get a chance.

Either way, it does not get away from the initial topic of discussion which
is that an IFR clearance on takeoff from MGW runway 18 should never contain
the words "On Takeoff Turn Left ...."


The MVA is indeed 3000 MSL in the WAY area.
How do you know?


I have asked ATC (Clarksburgh Approach) this question many times on IFR
flight plans approaching WAY.


Enroute traffic is typically kept higher for that very reason.

Yes, but for all I know enroute traffic was landing at a nearby airport and
thus kept lower or maybe wanted lower to avoid winds or icing or wanted
lower by request to stay IMC or had an emergency or any number of reasons.


So executing an instrument approach at MGW has nothing to do with
proceeding
IFR to WAY then? It's just to get a check on the weather? You fly the
approach, miss, and then climb to the MVA and proceed to WAY?

If the weather is marginal VFR for WAY, say minimum ceiling for a visual
approach into WAY with 3 miles visibility, I might well go missed on the ILS
to MGW and then continue IFR from MGW to WAY by my preference to help with
separation from other aircraft.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com