Cessna 150 Price Outlook

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message om...
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message m...

"John Galban" wrote in message om...

I've flown and spun 150/160s that were approved for spins in the
Utility Category.

Let me be more exact. The PA-28-150 and PA-28-160 are NOT
certficated in the utility category, hence no spins. The PA-28-151
and PA-28-161 are certificated in the utility category.

The PA-28-140, -180, -181 are certificated in the utility category

For those models that are certificated with for utility category operations.
1. You have to get the CG in the utility envelope.
2. You have to not have the 2150 gross weight increase.on the -140.
3. There is a serial number limit on the -180 for utility category operations.
4. You can only use the two front seats.

Oh, and by the way, I forgot one important thing. If your PA-28 can be
operated in the utility category, it will be placarded as such (with the gross
weight for that category). That's perhaps the easiest way to tell (provided
your aircraft is airworthy).



We need to be very careful here -- just because an airplane is
approved for operation in the Utility Category does NOT mean it is
certified for intentional spins!

Here's how certification works in this regard:

Normal Category operation -- intentional spins are NOT approved;

Acrobatic Category operation -- intentional spins ARE apporved;

Utility Category operation -- intentional spins MAY or MAY NOT be
approved, depending on whether or not the manufacturer elects (and it
is up to the manufacturer to choose) to spin test as if in the Normal
category or as if in the Acrobatic category.

That said, here's what I've got for the Piper PA-28-140 and PA-28-180
airplanes, excerpted from my stall/spin due for publication in 2004.

Hope this helps,

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com


-------start of excerpt--------
The Light Airplane Pilot's Guide to Stall/Spin Awareness
Copyright (c) 2003 by Rich Stowell

Chapter 16
THE TRUTH ABOUT MANUFACTURER-SUPPLIED INFORMATION

CASE STUDY -- PIPER PA-28-140
Piper PA-28-140 models (a.k.a.: Cherokee Warriors, Cruisers, and
Executives) were produced under TC No. 2A13. FAA-approved documents
are required on board all of these airplanes. The associated TCDS
refer to flight manuals approved prior to June 16, 1976 as AFM's, but
as POH's thereafter. The PA-28-140 was certificated as a dual category
airplane. Intentional spins are not approved when in the Normal part
of its operating envelope; intentional spins are approved, however,
when in the Utility part of its operating envelope.

The earliest approved AFM's issued were sparse in operating details.
One version of AFM Report VB-160, revised in March 1964 for example,
required the following placard: For Spin Recovery, Use Full Rudder
Against Spin, Followed Immediately By Forward Wheel. Power and aileron
settings are not mentioned here. The Procedures Section offers no
advice relevant to spinning the airplane, even though intentional
spins are approved when in the Utility envelope.

By comparison, the June 1976 version of the PA-28-140 flight manual
(Report VB-770), now called a POH, contains a separate Emergency
Procedures section with the following information: If a spin is
inadvertently entered, immediately move the throttle to idle and the
ailerons to neutral. Full rudder should then be applied opposite to
the direction of rotation followed by control wheel full forward. When
the rotation stops, neutralize the rudder and ease back on the control
wheel as required to smoothly regain a level flight attitude.

This POH also includes a sequential spin recovery checklist:
Throttle...idle
Ailerons...neutral
Rudder...full opposite to direction of rotation
Control wheel...full forward

Similar to the Cessna 150 series, the quality and depth of spin
information provided to pilots flying the Piper PA-28-140 certainly
was an evolving process. A rash of spin accidents in PA-28-140's,
however, prompted the issuance of Service Bulletin No. 753 in December
1982. The four-page bulletin, affecting all PA-28-140's built,
included expanded spin information and was to be kept in the airplanes
at all times.

It seems pilots generally were unaware just how critical it was that
this airplane be in the spins-approved Utility envelope when
performing spins. Cross the line into the spins-prohibited Normal
envelope--even a little bit--and the airplane could become
unrecoverable from the spin. Which hole the front seats were adjusted
into literally could be the difference between recovering and spinning
into the ground. Accurately assessing weight and center of gravity in
the Piper PA-28-140 is absolutely imperative. Yet little in the flight
manuals or the flight training environment drove home the seriousness
of this point.

The Service Bulletin also contained practical information about
spinning the airplane:
The spin should be entered from a power-off glide.... The ailerons
must remain neutral throughout the spin and recovery, since aileron
application may alter the spin characteristics to the degree that the
spin is broken prematurely or that recovery is delayed...

For spin recovery:
1. Apply and maintain full rudder opposite the direction of rotation.
2. As the rudder hits the stop, rapidly move the control wheel full
forward and be ready to relax the forward pressure when the spin
rotation has stopped.
3. As rotation stops, neutralize the rudder and smoothly recover from
the dive.
Normal recoveries may take up to 1-1/2 turns when proper technique is
used; improper techniques can increase the turns to recover and the
resulting altitude loss.

The Service Bulletin goes on to offer additional advice on spinning:
Application of full aft control wheel and full rudder before the
airplane stalls is not recommended as it results in large changes in
pitch attitude during entry and the first turn of the spin. The
recommended procedure has been designed to minimize turns and altitude
loss during recovery.... The immediate effect of applying normal
recovery controls may be an appreciable steepening of the nose down
attitude and an increase in rate of spin rotation. It is essential to
maintain full anti-spin rudder and to continue to hold the control
wheel full forward until the spin stops.... Delay in moving the
control wheel forward may result in the aircraft entering a very fast,
steep spin mode which could disorient a pilot.... depending on the
control column position [when the airplane recovers], it may be
necessary to move the column partially back almost immediately to
avoid an unnecessarily steep nose down attitude, possible negative "g"
forces and excessive loss of altitude.

Finally, solid information. But pilots either weren't getting the
message, or still didn't understand the critical nature of weight and
balance on spin behavior. Another bulletin, Special Airworthiness
Information Bulletin, ACE-97-02, had to be issued as a result. The
purpose was to advise pilots again of the need to comply with the
Service Bulletin issued nearly 15 years earlier:

Issuance of SB 753 was prompted by reports of spin training accidents;
recent events have indicated that the procedures presented in the SB
are not being followed or are/were not known to the participants in
the events. Spins must be performed correctly or the results can be
disastrous. All aspects of the spin maneuver must be understood
including: weight and balance, airspeed control, altitude required,
spin entry procedures, spin recovery procedures, etc. An unsafe and
deadly condition can develop rapidly if all of these aspects are not
taken into account.

All of the information contained in the 1982 Service Bulletin is then
reprinted in the 1997 Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin....

CASE STUDY -- PIPER PA-28-180
Like the PA-28-140, the Piper PA-28-180 (a.k.a.: Piper Archer) was
manufactured under TC No. 2A13. FAA-approved flight manuals are
required (referred to as AFM's in the TCDS). Intentional spins are
prohibited in this airplane.

The different versions of the Piper PA-28-180 FAA-approved AFM's are
cross-referenced with Report Numbers. The Procedures Section of Report
VB-163, revised 10/20/1964, reads as follows:
3. The PA 28-180 is approved under FAA Regulation CAR3 which prohibits
intentional spins. The following information is noteworthy:
a. The stall characteristics...are normal....
b. Prolonged use of full rudder during stall practice may result in a
rapid roll followed by a spin and should be avoided. Recovery from an
incipient spin may be effected in less than one additional turn by use
of opposite rudder followed by full forward control wheel.
c. In the event that a fully developed spin is inadvertently
experienced, recovery is best made by using full opposite rudder
followed by full forward wheel and full opposite aileron. The control
positions against the spin should be maintained during the entire
recovery, which may require several turns and a substantial loss of
altitude if the airplane is located [sic] heavily with a rearward
center of gravity.

This same information (sans the typo) is carried through both Report
VB-210 issued in April 1969, and Report VB-558 issued in July 1973.
The Owner's Handbook supplementing Report VB-210 lists the following
in Section IV:
Intentional spins are prohibited in this aircraft. If a spin is
inadvertently entered, immediately use the following recovery
procedures:
1. Throttle - Idle
2. Rudder – Full opposite to direction of rotation
3. Control Wheel – Full forward
4. Rudder – Neutral (when rotation stops
5. Control Wheel – As required to smoothly regain level flight
attitude.

The recommendations in the supplementary Owner's Handbook don't
conflict with anything contained in the approved Report VB-210. The
two documents merely provide different levels of information. For
instance, both are consistent regarding the sequencing of rudder and
elevator. The supplemental Owner's Manual calls for idle throttle; the
approved AFM doesn't mention throttle at all. The Owner's Manual makes
no distinction between incipient and developed spins; just as in
VB-163, however, AFM Report VB-210 recommends the use of opposite
aileron, but only during recovery from a developed spin. Let's zero in
on this aileron issue.

The Piper PA-28-180 was certificated under CAR3, spins prohibited. The
airplane was only required to demonstrate recovery from one-turn spins
within one additional turn to satisfy the standards in effect at the
time. The manufacturer wasn't required to spin test the airplane
beyond one turn--that is, spend additional time and money on it.

Did a test pilot in fact perform developed spins during testing? If
so, why? Did Piper want to certify the airplane as "spins-approved" in
the Utility Category, but the airplane just couldn't satisfy the
six-turn spin test criteria? Or did a test pilot add a couple of
multiple turn spins simply "to see what it'd do"? The AFM implies that
the PA-28-180 will recover from a developed spin in several turns, but
does it recover in part because of, or in spite of, the recommended
opposite aileron input? Could it be that no developed spins were done
at all, and the AFM's recommendation is a best guess?

The above questions aside, opposite ailerons tend to generate flat
spins in light airplanes. Where do you think airshow performers place
the ailerons for the dramatic flat spins demonstrated at airshows?
Moreover, certification criteria in effect at the time specifically
required airplanes like the Piper PA-28-180 to recover using "normal
recovery controls." The Type Certification Spin Test Procedures (AC
23-1) issued in April 1964 states, "All spin recoveries should be made
using the NASA spin recovery technique [consisting of] ailerons in
neutral position, full opposite rudder to stop rotation, followed by
forward elevator control as required..."

The context in which the Piper PA-28-180 AFM recommends opposite
aileron appears highly suspect. Practically speaking, a pilot
departing into an accidental spin in this airplane had better react
long before it stabilizes in a developed spin. And that pilot should
react with NASA Standard spin recovery actions, applied per the PARE®
checklist.

One last item: Seventy-nine Piper PA-28-180's rolled off the assembly
line at one point with placards to the effect that intentional spins
were approved when in actuality, intentional spins are NOT approved.
This prompted the issuance of an Airworthiness Directive (Amendment
39-2047, effective December 21, 1974) requesting removal of the
incorrect placard and replacement with the correct one. Mistakes do
happen, but seldom could an error as seemingly innocuous as dropping
the word "NOT" have such enormous ramifications: Proven spin and
recovery capability are implicit in the phrase, "Spins Approved,"
whereas unproven and potentially lethal spin behavior are implicit in
the phrase "Spins Not Approved."

----------end of excerpt--------

(Rich Stowell) wrote:
For spin recovery:
1. Apply and maintain full rudder opposite the direction of rotation.
2. As the rudder hits the stop, rapidly move the control wheel full
forward and be ready to relax the forward pressure when the spin
rotation has stopped.
3. As rotation stops, neutralize the rudder and smoothly recover from
the dive.
Normal recoveries may take up to 1-1/2 turns when proper technique is
used; improper techniques can increase the turns to recover and the
resulting altitude loss.

I hope anybody who's thinking of spinning an airplane doesn't read the
above and think they can just go out and try it. If you want to do
this, get some training first, and get it from somebody who flies and
teaches acro, not from your local CFI who has more bravado than brains.

Unless you're training for the PPL here in Canada, where spins and recovery
are part of the required syllabus at about lesson 11.

Steve House
CYHM


"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
(Rich Stowell) wrote:
For spin recovery:
1. Apply and maintain full rudder opposite the direction of rotation.
2. As the rudder hits the stop, rapidly move the control wheel full
forward and be ready to relax the forward pressure when the spin
rotation has stopped.
3. As rotation stops, neutralize the rudder and smoothly recover from
the dive.
Normal recoveries may take up to 1-1/2 turns when proper technique is
used; improper techniques can increase the turns to recover and the
resulting altitude loss.

I hope anybody who's thinking of spinning an airplane doesn't read the
above and think they can just go out and try it. If you want to do
this, get some training first, and get it from somebody who flies and
teaches acro, not from your local CFI who has more bravado than brains.

"Steve House" writes:

Unless you're training for the PPL here in Canada, where spins and
recovery are part of the required syllabus at about lesson 11.

Transport Canada removed spin training from the syllabus in the late
1990's (I don't know the exact year). It was not part of my PPL
training in 2002.

As far as I understand (*not* confirmed from an official source),
there were two problems with spin training:

1. The stall/spin accident rate was slightly higher in Canada than the
U.S., despite the fact that all Canadian PPL holders had spin training
and most U.S. PPL holders did not.

2. There were occasional training fatalities during spin training,
including one where the rudder in a 152 jumped its stop and jammed
past full deflection.

Given #1, there was no justification for the deaths in #2 (even if
they were fairly rare).


All the best,


David

David Megginson wrote in message ...
"Steve House" writes:

Unless you're training for the PPL here in Canada, where spins and
recovery are part of the required syllabus at about lesson 11.

Transport Canada removed spin training from the syllabus in the late
1990's (I don't know the exact year). It was not part of my PPL
training in 2002.

As far as I understand (*not* confirmed from an official source),
there were two problems with spin training:

1. The stall/spin accident rate was slightly higher in Canada than the
U.S., despite the fact that all Canadian PPL holders had spin training
and most U.S. PPL holders did not.

2. There were occasional training fatalities during spin training,
including one where the rudder in a 152 jumped its stop and jammed
past full deflection.

Given #1, there was no justification for the deaths in #2 (even if
they were fairly rare).


All the best,


David

The 152 problem was due to maintenance neglect: worn rudder
hinges, bent bellcrank, and so on. An AD has forced replacement of all
rudder stops on 150s to prevent further occurences.
Stall/spin accidents most often occur near the ground, such as in
the circuit, as I understand it, and spin training isn't going to save
you there. There won't be enough altitude for recovery. Learning to
recognize the situations that lead to spins is another thing and
should be taught thoroughly. We teach spins and spin recoveries even
in PPL training, using different real-life scenarios (with lots of
altitude) and lots of wing-drop stall recoveries.
Some guys spin into the ground by being stupid: buzzing a friend
and pulling up sharply and entering an accelerated stall at low
altitude. They weren't paying attention in groundschool, I guess.

Dan

(Dan Thomas) writes:

Stall/spin accidents most often occur near the ground, such as in
the circuit, as I understand it, and spin training isn't going to
save you there. There won't be enough altitude for
recovery. Learning to recognize the situations that lead to spins is
another thing and should be taught thoroughly. We teach spins and
spin recoveries even in PPL training, using different real-life
scenarios (with lots of altitude) and lots of wing-drop stall
recoveries.

I trained in 2002 in rental 172's, before buying my Warrior. We
didn't do spins at all (except that my instructor demonstrated one
incipient spin), but we tried hard to get wing-drops on stalls -- I
succeeded well under 50% of the time, even in a power-on, 30-deg-bank
departure stall.

In my Warrior, I have yet to see a wing drop in a stall at all. I
don't want to risk a spin or snap roll by stalling severely
uncoordinated, but nothing that I am willing to do -- various
combinations of fast stall, slow stall, power-on, power-off, wings
level, banked -- will drop a wing or really do anything other than
make the nose buffet up and down a little.


All the best,


David

David Megginson wrote:
: In my Warrior, I have yet to see a wing drop in a stall at all. I
: don't want to risk a spin or snap roll by stalling severely
: uncoordinated, but nothing that I am willing to do -- various
: combinations of fast stall, slow stall, power-on, power-off, wings
: level, banked -- will drop a wing or really do anything other than
: make the nose buffet up and down a little.

The Cherokee I fly has more or less the same tendencies, but it's
heavily dependent on the CG. The PA-28's have a very forward CG, which
makes them "auto-recover" so to speak from the stall. A bit of
buffetting, nose drops slightly and breaks the stall. Try it with a more
aft CG (than the usual full tanks and 1 or 2 people up front) and it gets
a bit more aggressive. I wouldn't recommend anything but a simple stall
in that more aft (Still in Normal, but more aft than Utility)
configuration, as spinning could be bad.

-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

David Megginson wrote:

I trained in 2002 in rental 172's
We didn't do spins at all

About 5 years ago, Transport Canada Aviation removed the
requirement for spins from the Cdn Private licence. Spins
are still required for the Commercial licence in Canada.

Given the definition of "aerobatic maneuvre" in CAR 101.01(1)
a fully-developed spin is pretty clearly an aerobatic maneuver,
and in a perfect world, perhaps fully-developed spins (upright,
inverted, accelerated, flat, etc) would best be taught by aerobatic
instructors in aerobatic aircraft, with the occupants wearing
emergency parachutes. IMHO.

That said, I think every pilot should know how to deal with
a dropping wing, either on departure or turning final, long
before it has a chance to develop into a full spin below 500 AGL.

--
ATP www.pittspecials.com

David Megginson wrote in message ...

I trained in 2002 in rental 172's, before buying my Warrior. We
didn't do spins at all (except that my instructor demonstrated one
incipient spin), but we tried hard to get wing-drops on stalls -- I
succeeded well under 50% of the time, even in a power-on, 30-deg-bank
departure stall.


Too much bank. Try ten degrees, and outside wing will drop fairly
promptly, especially if banking right.

Dan

David Megginson wrote in message ...
(Dan Thomas) writes:

Stall/spin accidents most often occur near the ground, such as in
the circuit, as I understand it, and spin training isn't going to
save you there. There won't be enough altitude for
recovery. Learning to recognize the situations that lead to spins is
another thing and should be taught thoroughly. We teach spins and
spin recoveries even in PPL training, using different real-life
scenarios (with lots of altitude) and lots of wing-drop stall
recoveries.

I trained in 2002 in rental 172's, before buying my Warrior. We
didn't do spins at all (except that my instructor demonstrated one
incipient spin), but we tried hard to get wing-drops on stalls -- I
succeeded well under 50% of the time, even in a power-on, 30-deg-bank
departure stall.

In my Warrior, I have yet to see a wing drop in a stall at all. I
don't want to risk a spin or snap roll by stalling severely
uncoordinated, but nothing that I am willing to do -- various
combinations of fast stall, slow stall, power-on, power-off, wings
level, banked -- will drop a wing or really do anything other than
make the nose buffet up and down a little.


Gee, in my Mooney I have yet to do a stall that doesn't result in a wing drop.