First Purchase Price Question

This is way too much to pay. Once the airplane is made airworthy and is
flying, other deficiencies will become apparant.

Mike
MU-2


"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Carl Orton wrote:


My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more
things
might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there
any
rule of thumb for these situations?

Dunno about a simple rule of thumb, but here's mine. Take the value of a
similar
aircraft in average condition. Subtract the amount that it would take to
repair
the known deficiencies. Your first offer should be in this ballpark. Then
take
the same average value of a similar aircraft and subtract half the amount
it
would take to repair the known deficiencies. Under no circumstances should
you
allow the owner to negiotiate the price higher than this.

Yoy take your chances on unknowns.

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the
mud.

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:51:31 -0500, "Carl Orton"
wrote:

UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal has
fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.

Thanks for the responses, though!
Carl

If I remember correctly Carl, you are located in the D/FW area, right?

There are too many ready-to-fly, already airworthy planes for sale in
the north Texas area right now.

You really didn't want a fixer-upper anyway... I can introduce you to
a fellow at my airport who thought he wanted one and bought a C172
that had been sitting in a barn for a few years. Now after a solid
year of working on it almost every day and some $40K+ invested, he
still hasn't been able to fly it yet, or even get it into the paint
shop yet.

Lycoming cams rot pretty quickly. Continental cams hold up better (as
others have stated) when abused with disuse. Ground running and taxiing
around can actually make the situation worse. All you do is heat the
engine up enough to get significant new condensation which only adds to
the problem. Engine never reaches temps that boil off the water (as you
pointed out).

Planes flown regularly with owners who replace things before they
actually break are usually a much better risk.

Beware the "pigs with lipstick". These are planes that are mechanical
basket cases but have a spiffy looking new paint job (usually a cut rate
shortcut job that won't look good very long). I am also very suspicious
of 0 SMOH deals. Give me one with 300-400 hours and regular flying and
oil changes. Best way to test a new overhaul... fly it.

As far as offer pricing, you try to assess the plane's true condition.
None are perfect and it may be unrealistic to try and guess about the
unknown and beat the price down. You need deep enough pockets to play
this game and take a $2000 - $3000 hit without going broke.

Inspection, looking at the log books, and discussion with owner(s) and
pilot(s) who fly it usually add up to a pretty good picture. If the
owner is evasive, the log books suspicious, or you get a bad vibe from
talking to the owner(s) or from what you see, that is usually a warning
sign.

It is a weird transaction. Lots of emotion, small market, limited
supply, significant dollars, lots of opinions, no clear answers. The
thought of waiting 3, 4, 6, or 12 months to find the right plane just
does not sit well with most folks.

Good Luck,
Mike
Carl Orton wrote:
Mike, I think I know where you're coming from, but would like to seek
clarification.

How bad could the cam be? Although it wasn't *flown* in 2 years, it was
run/taxied regularly (monthly? who knows?). Yes, I'm aware that it got no
where near operating temp, acids in the oil, etc. I just wanted to clarify
that it wasn't really just sitting for 2 years. No way would I even look at
that unless it was priced to account for a factory reman!

But, I'm curious. I know that a pre-buy / annual won't find EVERYTHING. So
do you just go with gut feel? Do you reduce an offer price any to account
for unknowns on *any* plane? Or, does the fact that a plane is flown
regularly provide better confidence that what you're getting is close to
what's represented?

Thanks; getting better at finding the issues;
Carl

"Mike Spera" wrote in message
...

Hey Carl,

It would be interesting to track this as it unfolds. I doubt you would
get truthful and accurate numbers, but I'm sure the group would love to
see where this fellow ends up.

Top overhaul? Yeah right. Until they pull the cylinders and see the
corroded, useless cam. After 2 years of sitting - I would put money on it.

And I love the notion of "subtract all the necessary repairs from the
purchase price". I would agree if I could fly it for a year and do the
following annual with MY mechanic. We subtract all the repairs for the
year and anything that comes up in the next annual. Then I will tell you
that is a good method of figuring the plane's real worth. All the
"necessary repairs" are not going to jump off the plane and fall into
the mechanic's squawk book today. Guaranteed. But, after 80-100 hours of
operation, I'd place money on the fact that many, many items (initially
unnoticed) come up. I'll make it interesting, I'll pay for half of what
comes up and, of course, I'll pay for the inspections.

In the "subtract the repairs from the price scenario", who gets to
decide what the anticipated "repair price" will be? For this "top
overhaul", are we getting new cylinders or some off the rack, cut rate
rebuilds? If I am right and this top overhaul goes South, will it be a
new cam or regrind? Will we assume the case will be usable? Alternator
overhaul, carb overhaul, prop overhaul, muffler, exhaust stacks, hoses,
control cables, scat tubing, pulleys, and the list goes on and on.

But, as you said, they guy got greedy. He has been fooled by his own
marketing and is trying to "buy" the airplane himself by taking on all
the repairs. He just did you a tremendous favor. You get to watch what
would have happened to you.

My prediction: the total bill to get this thing in reasonable flying
condition plus 6 months of flying will double or worse. More likely,
when the bills start to mount, he will try to cheap out the remaining
repairs or he will bail out and put it on the market again unfinished.

I would look at a prospective plane like this: what does it have going
for it? Paint, interior, engine, airframe, and avionics. If one is weak
and the price is right, the bird is usually worth a look. Two or more
and my interest fades no matter what the price.

Opinions vary,
Mike

Carl Orton wrote:

UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal

has

fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.

Thanks for the responses, though!
Carl

"Carl Orton" wrote in message
...


Hi, All;

Have looked at some a/c for sale, and have found one I'm interested in.

The bird has not been flown in over two years, and is out of annual.

The owner said that he would have an annual done before quoting me a

price;


guess he figures it will be worth more as a result. This was one of

those

situations where I noticed a plane that didn't seem to have much use, so

I

decided to contact the owner.

So, an annual was scheduled. The A&P (has never seen this a/c before)

says

that it needs quite a bit of work. Needs a top overhaul, some brake

work,

nose strut rebuilt, and some other lesser items. Otherwise, the airframe

is


in good shape; paint fair, but passes the 20' test, needs some carpet

and

plastic.

What is usual here for working up a price, realizing that there probably
isn't any typical way of handling the negotiations? At this point,

nothing

is signed. The owner is stating that if everything was working fine, it
would be worth "X" dollars, and he is considering the option of selling

it

for "X" minus the estimated cost of repairs for the items above.

My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more

things

might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there

any

rule of thumb for these situations? It's a common simple plane, but I'd
really prefer to work with something local at my current airport instead

of


continuing to hunt all over the state/country.

Thanks;
Carl







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CheckerBird!!!!

Good memory!!! Still looking for that elusive deal. Thanks for the pics of
the 150 at your airport. Never got up there to take a look. Have found 2
others in the general area here that are a bit newer ('70 & '75). Both dual
nav/coms, etc. Both relatively decent. And, importantly, flown regularly!

It's interesting how each new day is bringing me more new knowledge in this
area. Yet there's still so much more yet to be learned!

Big challenge now is the spouse. She rode in a friend's Bonanza last week,
and really noticed the speed difference on a quick trip up to Kansas. 2.5
hrs vs 7.5 by car! Made a big impact on her. I think I've created a
monster....

Carl

"Neal" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:51:31 -0500, "Carl Orton"
wrote:

UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal
has
fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.

Thanks for the responses, though!
Carl

If I remember correctly Carl, you are located in the D/FW area, right?

There are too many ready-to-fly, already airworthy planes for sale in
the north Texas area right now.

You really didn't want a fixer-upper anyway... I can introduce you to
a fellow at my airport who thought he wanted one and bought a C172
that had been sitting in a barn for a few years. Now after a solid
year of working on it almost every day and some $40K+ invested, he
still hasn't been able to fly it yet, or even get it into the paint
shop yet.

In article , "Carl Orton"
writes:

Big challenge now is the spouse. She rode in a friend's Bonanza last week,
and really noticed the speed difference on a quick trip up to Kansas. 2.5
hrs vs 7.5 by car! Made a big impact on her. I think I've created a
monster....


Boy, do you go to the head of the class with that comment. Most of us try to
figure ways to get our better half interested in flying. You seem to have the
"problem" of talking your wife out of getting a better, faster plane.

I should be so lucky.G

Chuck

("Bob Fry" wrote)
I went through this exact scenario more than once when I was looking
for an Ercoupe. Using the FAA database, I wrote owners in
N. Calif. if they wanted to sell--thus I was often the first person to
talk to these guys about selling. Most wanted too much for runout
engines, hangar queens, etc. Finally found one in good shape at a
reasonable price--I paid his asking price w/o negotiation, since by
now I knew it was reasonable.


Did it work out OK for you - money pit wise?

--
Montblack
"Styled by the laws of nature.............Concorde"

"Montblack" writes:

("Bob Fry" wrote)
I went through this exact scenario more than once when I was looking
for an Ercoupe. Using the FAA database, I wrote owners in
N. Calif. if they wanted to sell--thus I was often the first person to
talk to these guys about selling. Most wanted too much for runout
engines, hangar queens, etc. Finally found one in good shape at a
reasonable price--I paid his asking price w/o negotiation, since by
now I knew it was reasonable.


Did it work out OK for you - money pit wise?

--
Montblack
"Styled by the laws of nature.............Concorde"

Yes. This is a 1965 Aircoupe. Very few of these are "perfect"--most
owners simply won't pour huge amounts of money into improving what is
basically a $20K to $25K airplane, max. Occasionally you'll see
someone who does, though, and tries to get some of it back ("$70,000
worth of improvements, asking $40,000"). I doubt they get many takers.

So, my first annual was $2000, including an AD which involved removing
the wing and inspecting for corrosion. All I did was remove and
replace panels; I don't have more skills than that, so while many guys
could clean their own plugs, pack wheel bearings, etc. I didn't do any
of that. Maybe I'll start learning. A number of smallish-to-moderate
things were improved, things that weren't critical but were good to
do. For instance, when the wings were off some of the bellcranks were
replaced; replaced the old electro-mechanical-style voltage regulator
with a Zeftronics; and so forth. Basically a number of things that a
different, somewhat anal mechanic would catch, but nothing really
critical to flight safety.

So, my first annual was $2000, including an AD which involved removing
the wing and inspecting for corrosion.

My A&P has an Ercoupe in the shop right now, sans wings. They are waiting
for parts, so I don't think they like what they found.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:6aXnb.59211$HS4.304112@attbi_s01...
So, my first annual was $2000, including an AD which involved removing
the wing and inspecting for corrosion.

My A&P has an Ercoupe in the shop right now, sans wings. They are waiting
for parts, so I don't think they like what they found.

My Ercoupe annual was close to $2k this year with the removal of the wings
for the inspection. Had some other stuff done like replacing tires too. I
hope it's not another $2k annual again next year, although I'll have to find
a different inspector.

My Ercoupe annual was close to $2k this year with the removal of the wings
for the inspection. Had some other stuff done like replacing tires too. I
hope it's not another $2k annual again next year, although I'll have to
find
a different inspector.

Ouch.

What happened to your A&P?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"