Cirrus and Lancair Make Bonanza Obsolete?

There is insufficient time-in-service to really be able to say much about
Cirrus accident rates. The Concorde went from having the best airliner
accident rate to the worst with one accident. That's the problem with new
airplanes - insuffiicent experience with the fleet.

My gut is that they'll be better than a Bonanza over time because it's a
newer design and because the fleet will be much younger - there are an awful
lot of Bonanzas flying around with lots of hours, lots of owners, lots of
mods, and lots of mechanics who have worked on them. That being said, the
Bonanza is a very proven design with excellent type-specific training
available through ABS.

The only reason I might select a Cirrus over a Bonanza for safety reasons is
if I were flying a lot of IFR - some of the available panels and autopilots
in the Cirrus are really nice and there is better backup and redundancy. A
new/modern electrical system is also a safety plus for IFR flight. And
everything else being equal, fixed gears are also safer airplanes in clouds.
In non-professional service, the weakest link in single-pilot IFR is the
pilot and anything that reduces workload and covers for errors is a safety
plus.

- Mark

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:32:53 GMT, "markjen"
wrote:

some of the available panels and autopilots
in the Cirrus are really nice and there is better backup and redundancy.

My SR20 autopilot failed in solid IMC because the Cirrus roll trim
servo fired the STEC-55X roll computer. There was no indication of the
failure and since the ALT hold mode was still working I was gradually
placed in a graveyard spiral. Fortunately I spotted it and flew the
rest of the trip (10 hours 8 in solid IMC) manually. There was no
backup, there was not even an indication of failure. I can also say
because the plane does not have manual trim it is a beast to fly for
long periods in IMC without the autopilot.

I dont agree with fixed gear being safer in IMC, I have a turbo arrow and
putting the gear down is second nature.
By the time you get to your FAF you have it in landing configuration, no
problems..


markjen wrote:

everything else being equal, fixed gears are also safer airplanes in clouds.
In non-professional service, the weakest link in single-pilot IFR is the
pilot and anything that reduces workload and covers for errors is a safety
plus.

- Mark

Jeff wrote
I dont agree with fixed gear being safer in IMC, I have a turbo arrow and
putting the gear down is second nature.
By the time you get to your FAF you have it in landing configuration, no
problems..

That's not what he's talking about. The risk we're concerned with is
not gear-up landing (which is, for all practical purposes, a financial
rather than a life-and-lib risk) but loss of control in IMC. Having
the gear hanging out means it takes that much longer to overspeed the
airplane, giving the pilot that much more time to recover from the
unusual attitude.

Michael

On 13-Nov-2003, (Michael) wrote:

That's not what he's talking about. The risk we're concerned with is
not gear-up landing (which is, for all practical purposes, a financial
rather than a life-and-lib risk) but loss of control in IMC. Having
the gear hanging out means it takes that much longer to overspeed the
airplane, giving the pilot that much more time to recover from the
unusual attitude.

I agree, However, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the
Cirrus is an extremely "clean" airplane even with its fixed gear. That's
how it achieves its exceptional cruise speed performance. On an airplane
like an Arrow you can extend the gear to greatly increase drag when things
get dicey. Obviously not an option in the Cirrus, but they could employ
spoilers or similar devices to achieve the same purpose.

--
-Elliott Drucker

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:19:00 GMT, wrote:


On an airplane
like an Arrow you can extend the gear to greatly increase drag when things
get dicey. Obviously not an option in the Cirrus, but they could employ
spoilers or similar devices to achieve the same purpose.

Lancair does offer spoilers, but Cirrus does not.

Not yet, but I'll bet they will soon.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:59:08 GMT, ArtP
wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:19:00 GMT, wrote:


On an airplane
like an Arrow you can extend the gear to greatly increase drag when things
get dicey. Obviously not an option in the Cirrus, but they could employ
spoilers or similar devices to achieve the same purpose.

Lancair does offer spoilers, but Cirrus does not.

I agree with you there, put the gear down and you slow way the hell down and
start dropping altitude

wrote:

On 13-Nov-2003, (Michael) wrote:

That's not what he's talking about. The risk we're concerned with is
not gear-up landing (which is, for all practical purposes, a financial
rather than a life-and-lib risk) but loss of control in IMC. Having
the gear hanging out means it takes that much longer to overspeed the
airplane, giving the pilot that much more time to recover from the
unusual attitude.

I agree, However, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the
Cirrus is an extremely "clean" airplane even with its fixed gear. That's
how it achieves its exceptional cruise speed performance. On an airplane
like an Arrow you can extend the gear to greatly increase drag when things
get dicey. Obviously not an option in the Cirrus, but they could employ
spoilers or similar devices to achieve the same purpose.

--
-Elliott Drucker

not a factor, I have an auto pilot, if it goes out, fly the instruments, it does
not take much to get out of an unusual attitude. I own a retract, I fly it in
IMC.


Michael wrote:

Jeff wrote
I dont agree with fixed gear being safer in IMC, I have a turbo arrow and
putting the gear down is second nature.
By the time you get to your FAF you have it in landing configuration, no
problems..

That's not what he's talking about. The risk we're concerned with is
not gear-up landing (which is, for all practical purposes, a financial
rather than a life-and-lib risk) but loss of control in IMC. Having
the gear hanging out means it takes that much longer to overspeed the
airplane, giving the pilot that much more time to recover from the
unusual attitude.

Michael

not a factor, I have an auto pilot, if it goes out, fly the instruments,
it does
not take much to get out of an unusual attitude. I own a retract, I fly it
in
IMC.

I guess you're just a great pilot. But for us average pilots, loss of
control is a very big concern.

(I'd love to put you in a simulator and start introducing random instrument
failures in heavy turbulence while flying a tough approach. Hmmm .... the
turn coordinator and horizon don't seem to agree. Which is right? You've
got about five seconds to figure it out before you die.)

- Mark