Another ownership question

ks_av8r wrote:


Another one, is if after a year or so, if it isn't getting the flying time
for break even, you can always consider a co-ownership at that time and
sell
1/2 of it.

Another factor to consider, beyond hours flying, is the hours spent with the
aircraft sitting away from home. Renting, this costs. Owning, it's free.

That's a "column" that pushed me heavily towards club membership (something
like ownership with training wheels {8^).

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon wrote:


Another factor to consider, beyond hours flying, is the hours spent with the
aircraft sitting away from home. Renting, this costs. Owning, it's free.

That's a "column" that pushed me heavily towards club membership (something
like ownership with training wheels {8^).

Yup, I went with club membership. It has almost all the advantages of
owning but few of the drawbacks. At least in my club the fleet is big
enough that scheduling is seldom a problem, except on the exceptionally
nice weekends when you wait until Thursday to schedule . I pay
monthly dues that include insurance as a named insured, and cost less
than buying insurance on the open market. The wet rate for a 20 year
old Warrior II is about the same as the wet rate for a 30 year old 172
at an FBO but the Warriors are better equipped (gps, autopilot). There
is a pool of instructors associated with the club that use a common
syllabus and meet club requirements, and regular ground schools are
held. Maintanence is handled by the club, with help from members
volunteering their time under A&P supervision. Also the cameradarie is
a big benefit.

Persoally, I can't see ever owning while the club is available to me.
Heck, I've figured that if you GAVE me an airplane it still would cost
me more (insurance, taxes, tie down, annuals, etc) than I pay to fly in
the club. Btw I fly about 50-75 hours a year.

Mike
--
PP-ASEL
PA28-161
http://www.wingsofcarolina.org
Note: email invalid. Respond on newsgroup

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
: Yup, I went with club membership. It has almost all the advantages of
: owning but few of the drawbacks.

Biggest problem I had with flight club was no percieved cost
benefit to just renting from an FBO. A flight club cannot afford to run a
shoestring budget, and must bill real (expected) costs per hour. The fact
is that airplanes run best and are the cheapest when they're flown a lot.
If you fly 75 hours a year, buying your own (or better yet partnership)
might be a break-even point to renting. Difference is if you own it, you
only immediately see the direct operating costs (fuel/oil). For me it's
easier to justify a nice 2-hour afternoon flight after work if I can stop
by the gas station on the way to the airport and refill my Cherokee for
$20. If I had to pay $144 for 2 hours of club rental, I wouldn't do it.

: Persoally, I can't see ever owning while the club is available to me.
: Heck, I've figured that if you GAVE me an airplane it still would cost
: me more (insurance, taxes, tie down, annuals, etc) than I pay to fly in
: the club. Btw I fly about 50-75 hours a year.

Again, for that useage, it's probably a break-even point for solo
ownership. For me it's the direct perceived cost of taking a flight that
will encourage/discourage it. Flying a 1100nm round-trip to see my folks
a month ago directly cost me $150 in fuel. For $750 club PA-28 rental,
there's no way in hell I would have gone.

YMMV
-Cory



--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
: Yup, I went with club membership. It has almost all the advantages of
: owning but few of the drawbacks.

Biggest problem I had with flight club was no percieved cost
benefit to just renting from an FBO.

You are right. I pay about the same per hour to fly in the club as I
would with the FBO. The benefits I see of club membership over
similar-cost FBO renting a

1. The club has a fleet of 9 airplanes of three types with good
availability but the FBO only has one 172 (well did until it was wrecked
recently but they are replacing it) and one 182 with very tight
availability -- if you aren't a primary student at the FBO, forget about
it on the weekends.

2. The club's planes are better equipped (autopilot, gps)

3. If I fly with the FBO I would have to buy renter's insurance that
costs more than the club's dues, and those dues include insurance that
is better than what I could buy on my own, and also include the club's
facilities including a club hangar (that I have access to 24/7 so if I
want to fly on the spur of the moment I can even when the facility is
closed and locked up for the day) and a very nice weather downlink
briefing setup. Plus I like the cameraderie.

4. The club has 6 instructors to choose from while the FBO only has one,
see point #1 about availability

(remember the above is comparing the club to FBO renting, not comparing
it to owning

Difference is if you own it, you
only immediately see the direct operating costs (fuel/oil). For me it's
easier to justify a nice 2-hour afternoon flight after work if I can stop
by the gas station on the way to the airport and refill my Cherokee for
$20. If I had to pay $144 for 2 hours of club rental, I wouldn't do it.

This is a very good point, though it's more emotional than practical. I
do sometimes cringe when writing those large checks for long flights.
However on the flip side if I owned I think I would cringe in the months
when I would have to write large checks for all the fixed costs but I
didn't fly the airplane very much if at all. And given my flying habits
that second cringe would amount to far more money over time.

: Persoally, I can't see ever owning while the club is available to me.
: Heck, I've figured that if you GAVE me an airplane it still would cost
: me more (insurance, taxes, tie down, annuals, etc) than I pay to fly in
: the club. Btw I fly about 50-75 hours a year.

Again, for that useage, it's probably a break-even point for solo
ownership. For me it's the direct perceived cost of taking a flight that
will encourage/discourage it. Flying a 1100nm round-trip to see my folks
a month ago directly cost me $150 in fuel. For $750 club PA-28 rental,
there's no way in hell I would have gone.

I can see that view, however I would come out ahead that way because I
did not pay several hundred dollars in fixed costs for the previous
months when I only flew a few hours due to travel, weather, etc.

In fact my brother-in-law owns an Archer which he's had for a long time
and has long since paid off. I was envious, until I learned he hasn't
flown since January and the plane is just sitting there rotting because
he can't justify keeping up with the fixed costs for the flying he's
doing (it doesn't help he's been laid off and is in a tight spot).

Which brings up the other advantage of the club over ownership: it's a
lot easier to walk away if something happens medically or financially to
make flying impractical.

Of course all this doesn't mean I don't fantasize about owning an
airplane, but for me that fantasy also includes getting a windfall of at
least $100,000 first

YMMV

We agree on this, it is a wise statement indeed

Mike
--
PP-ASEL
PA28-161
http://www.wingsofcarolina.org
Note: email invalid. Respond on newsgroup

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
: This is a very good point, though it's more emotional than practical. I
: do sometimes cringe when writing those large checks for long flights.
: However on the flip side if I owned I think I would cringe in the months
: when I would have to write large checks for all the fixed costs but I
: didn't fly the airplane very much if at all. And given my flying habits
: that second cringe would amount to far more money over time.

Maintenance doesn't have to be a bank-killer. There are more
cost-effective ways (read: owner-assisted annuals and preventative
maintenance) to keep a bird airworthy. The biggest potential cost savings
is to get a partner, or maybe two.

: I can see that view, however I would come out ahead that way because I
: did not pay several hundred dollars in fixed costs for the previous
: months when I only flew a few hours due to travel, weather, etc.

True... although I've got a somewhat skewed view since I've got a
unique agreement with my partners. They buy the parts, I put them on, the
mechanic inspects and signs it off.

: Which brings up the other advantage of the club over ownership: it's a
: lot easier to walk away if something happens medically or financially to
: make flying impractical.

Very true. It became obvious to me that if I wanted to fly more
than an hour a month, I'd have to own. For me, getting the partners was
enough to share the financial responsibility.

: Of course all this doesn't mean I don't fantasize about owning an
: airplane, but for me that fantasy also includes getting a windfall of at
: least $100,000 first

Aw... a descent-shape PA-28-140 can be had for $25-30k. I guess
my problem with flight clubs is that they cannot be run "cheaply."
Everything costs more when it's a club... insurance goes up (a lot!),
engine overhaul must be paid for in advance and done by the book (pay a
mechanic to take it off, send to to have overhauled, etc), etc, etc.

: YMMV

: We agree on this, it is a wise statement indeed

I'll stand by it and reiterate...

BTW, talk to me again in 6 months when I cussing working on the friggin'
thing again at annual time!

-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:

Maintenance doesn't have to be a bank-killer. There are more
cost-effective ways (read: owner-assisted annuals and preventative
maintenance) to keep a bird airworthy.
[snip]
True... although I've got a somewhat skewed view since I've got a
unique agreement with my partners. They buy the parts, I put them on, the
mechanic inspects and signs it off.

Oh, did I remember to mention that I'm all thumbs with a wrench? To
paraphrase Groucho Marx, I would not fly in an airplane that I maintained.

: Of course all this doesn't mean I don't fantasize about owning an
: airplane, but for me that fantasy also includes getting a windfall of at
: least $100,000 first

Aw... a descent-shape PA-28-140 can be had for $25-30k.

I have expensive aircraft fantasies plus that one would include
having money left over to defray a lot of the fixed costs.

I guess
my problem with flight clubs is that they cannot be run "cheaply."
Everything costs more when it's a club... insurance goes up (a lot!),
engine overhaul must be paid for in advance and done by the book (pay a
mechanic to take it off, send to to have overhauled, etc), etc, etc.

I see that as a good thing.

BTW, talk to me again in 6 months when I cussing working on the friggin'
thing again at annual time!

I hear ya. I have a boat that I hate taking care of, so I figure
given that experience I better not take on an airplane unless I am
willing to write a lot of checks. What kind of airplane do you and
your partners own?

Mike
--
PP-ASEL
PA28-161
http://www.wingsofcarolina.org
Note: email invalid. Respond on newsgroup

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
: Aw... a descent-shape PA-28-140 can be had for $25-30k.

: I have expensive aircraft fantasies plus that one would include
: having money left over to defray a lot of the fixed costs.

Better rent then...


: I guess
: my problem with flight clubs is that they cannot be run "cheaply."
: Everything costs more when it's a club... insurance goes up (a lot!),
: engine overhaul must be paid for in advance and done by the book (pay a
: mechanic to take it off, send to to have overhauled, etc), etc, etc.

: I see that as a good thing.

I'm trying to be the cheap ******* aircraft owner/operator. I'd
prefer not to pay for incorporation fees, club-rate insurance, and
inflated engine overhaul funds. Just pay for the real expenses, and don't
spend more than you have to.

: BTW, talk to me again in 6 months when I cussing working on the friggin'
: thing again at annual time!

: I hear ya. I have a boat that I hate taking care of, so I figure
: given that experience I better not take on an airplane unless I am
: willing to write a lot of checks. What kind of airplane do you and
: your partners own?

Boats are holes in the water you put money into. Never thought it
could be topped until I got involved with aviation. Our plane is a '69
Cherokee 180 that we've finally gotten up to snuff. Mechanically pretty
sound (after a quick $1500 top job), and fresh used digital old-school
King IFR stack.

-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

("TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote)
In fact my brother-in-law owns an Archer which he's had for a long time
and has long since paid off. I was envious, until I learned he hasn't
flown since January and the plane is just sitting there rotting because
he can't justify keeping up with the fixed costs for the flying he's
doing (it doesn't help he's been laid off and is in a tight spot).


Grab 3 other people and buy the plane from your sister's hubby. You'd be
helping out a family member in need. g

BTW - did anyone else think it ironic (in the KX-155 LEDs thread) that one
fix for cleaning connections (gold? silver?) was to polish them with a
dollar bill?

Let us know how things go with your new Archer partnership. You 4 going to
hangar that rascal, or just tie it down the first year?

--
Montblack

Montblack wrote:

("TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote)

In fact my brother-in-law owns an Archer which he's had for a long time
and has long since paid off. I was envious, until I learned he hasn't
flown since January and the plane is just sitting there rotting because
he can't justify keeping up with the fixed costs for the flying he's
doing (it doesn't help he's been laid off and is in a tight spot).



Grab 3 other people and buy the plane from your sister's hubby. You'd be
helping out a family member in need. g

He's got too much pride to sell that plane, and even if he did I have a
rule about not buying cars, planes or boats from relatives, or selling
such to them -- it's much better for family harmony that way, as I've
learned through experience (wanna buy a boat that has only had one other
owner, my father .

Let us know how things go with your new Archer partnership. You 4 going to
hangar that rascal, or just tie it down the first year?

you're good, you should go into sales

Mike
--
PP-ASEL
PA28-161
http://www.wingsofcarolina.org
Note: email invalid. Respond on newsgroup

E-mail me off group about your boat. Thanks.

I'm the current owner of *my* dad's boat - 16 ft money sucking machine with
a propeller g.

My sister might be getting the "family" boat (free) for Christmas evil
grin.

Redecking project is almost complete - marine plywood cut/spar
varnished/glue/marine carpet/stainless hardware/etc. Completion (a.k.a. -
reinstall pieces into das boat) can wait 'till April. Boat's in its own
little winter cocoon now.

Family calls my season-end "keep snow and rain out of the boat" effort The
Aircraft Carrier. I built an 8 ft high wall x about 12 ft long (with 16"
stud centers) then set it down, across the boat. I attached 7 short legs,
which raise the starboard side up - for water runoff. The legs also lift the
(framed only) wall over the steering console (no windshield on this fishing
boat). Bought a 15'x25' brown/green tarp at Menard's to cover the whole
thing. Whole setup (lumber/screws/tarp/bungees) cost $40 max. When
disassembled, the lumber fits between 2 stud sections in the garage - for
summer storage. Cheapest part of ownership has been putting the boat away on
the slab for the season. g

12" of snow forecast for the Twin Cities this weekend.

Mont with black then at
then the "wave" plus the "front"
and a dot then the com

--
Montblack

("TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote)
He's got too much pride to sell that plane, and even if he did I have a
rule about not buying cars, planes or boats from relatives, or selling
such to them -- it's much better for family harmony that way, as I've
learned through experience (wanna buy a boat that has only had one other
owner, my father