Getting a little sick of it all

It can be a lot frustrating to be the seller or the buyer. I just sold one
plane
and bought another. I keep hearing people tell me it's a buyers market. Sure
didn't seem that way to me. Every time I saw a promising candidate be posted
for sale it was sold or had a deposit on it when I called. I finally found
something
in another state and had a friend quick run over and look it over and go
thru the logs. I bought it.

On the plane I sold I was buried in buyers. Were some tire kickers? Maybe ..
but I was a tire kicker at a time and so I try to give them all the info I
can to
help them out. I understand they may not have made a decision to buy
a plane yet and are testing the waters. I first made a comment online last
fall that I was considering a sale of my plane and had several emails back
within about 10 minutes offering to buy it. The first guy to email me came
and looked at it before I even decided to sell it. Then he couldn't get his
money together when I agreed. The eventual buyer was the second guy
who'd emailed me. I've never asked for a downpayment. I work thru the
buyers in the order they contact me and give them a week or so to decide.
But I don't stop advertising until the transaction is completed. So when
I told the buyer that I had others that wanted the plane .. it was
absolutely the truth.

Some comments from the buyer perspective:

I always pay the $99 and have AOPA do the Lien/Airworthiness/Registration
history on the plane. Then I compare the 337s on file and the
accident/incident
history with the log books. I look for a pattern of fixing things as they go
wrong
and no long periods where nothing is repaired. I look for anything in the
logs
that might indicate an undisclosed damage history. I know that every plane
will
have issues and budget about 5% of the price for dealing with it. I buy it
so that
it won't have problems that will haunt me at resale time.

As a seller:

The plane I'm selling isn't going anywhere. It can be inspected in the shop
of my
A&P, by the buyer's A&P. The potential buyer can inspect whatever they want.
The
buyer's A&P doesn't work for me and is to make no entries in the logs. The
purpose
of a prebuy from MY perspective as a seller is for the potential buyer to
see if the
plane in it's "AS IS" condition meets their budget at my asking price. If
not then
they should move on. I don't buy junk. I don't fly junk. I take care of my
planes ..
so if there's any issues they're pretty minor ones. So while I'm not
inflexible on price ..
using the prebuy and a discrepensy list to try to haggle the price down ..
just don't
work. I set the price at what's selling in the market right now and the
condition
of the plane. I sure don't consider that arogance .. I've just been down
the road
a few times and can usually read a buyer and just don't respond to or deal
with the ones I think aren't up front or that I think will be difficult.





"MRQB" wrote in message
...
I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found
1
airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.
This
last airplane that I looked at was great kinda sounded to good to be true,
seller lost job and needed money the logs looked like they were in order
had
2 missing years but had a good explanation and a NTSB search showed no
accident history. I told him that id have an A&P come over tomorrow and do
a
pre buy and review his logs again. He said no you can have my mechanic do
your pre buy as no inspection plates are coming off with out my mechanic
taking them off. I told him that you can have your mechanic do all the
wrenching but I need my mechanic look it over before I buy. He refused to
let me do a pre buy so I walked away and went home.

He called me up later in the evening and said to tell him now if I wanted
it
or not and real persistent that I give him an answer right now, I told him
that I am really interested and as I told him earlier today I need to do a
pre buy first before I can make that decision. He said flat out no pre buy
from an independent A&P and his reasoning were that an independent A & P
did
not know his airplane "Cessna 172" and if the independent A & P found
something wrong (Airworthy Issue) that he would have to fix it before he
could fly it again and he did not have the money to do that if I did not
buy
the airplane. If I cannot make my own decisions mabye I should let him
talk
to the woman of the house and let her make it. I said sorry and
immediately
hung up the phone!

This guy had the nerve to call me back telling me that I was rude for
hanging up on him and if you cannot tell what a good deal is with your own
eyes then I you will never own a airplane. I hung up on him and entered
his
phone # in to my call rejection.

Yes the deal seemed like a good deal almost to good to be true 1976 172
8,000TT 700 SFRM $28,000 Firm his log books and AD lists were the best I
have seen to date very organized Annual was due at the end of the month.
No
telling what problems this guy was trying to hide with this airplane.

What is with some of these people they seem worse then car dealers.

Here is funny one read below first thing that tripped mu bull****
indicator
was when he said "I cannot recall" well if they have compleate logs it
should be a simple yes or no answer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-------------------------------------------------------

The airframe book refers to a 337 but we do not have it. I could get a
copy
from the feds in Ok City, but would take a little while. Do you want one?

Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "MRQB"
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:57 AM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Do you have a 337 on that repair.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
To: "TAC"
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:06 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Logs indicate firewall repair in 1982. Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "TAC"
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:23 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


March 05, 1982 can you look that up in the logs for me.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:13 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Forgot to tell you... all logs, I cannot recall any major damage.
Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trade-A-Plane Web Site"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:27 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


A Trade-A-Plane web user wishes to inquire about your ad.

This message is from:

Please send all the spec's thank you.

Dose it have all the logs and is there any damage history?

"Roger Tracy" wrote in message . ..
snip
I don't buy junk. I don't fly junk. I take care of my
planes ..
so if there's any issues they're pretty minor ones. So while I'm not
inflexible on price ..
using the prebuy and a discrepensy list to try to haggle the price down ..
just don't
work.

You're sure that any issues will be minor ones? Often, having a
different A&P look at a plane will uncover a problem that wasn't
noticed by the current one. I'd say you'd have to qualify your
statement above. If the prebuy uncovered significant discrepancies
that you did not know about (or tell him about), why shouldn't the
seller expect you to adjust the price accordingly.

I agree in general that a buyer who wants to nitpick minor items
into big price adjustments should probably be shown the door. But on
the other hand, as a buyer, the prepurchase inspection will probably
be the single biggest factor in determining the true value of the
airplane.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Idd rather take a few hundred dollar loss in a pre purchace inspection than
a $20,000 or more loss


"John Galban" wrote in message
om...
"Roger Tracy" wrote in message
. ..
snip
I don't buy junk. I don't fly junk. I take care of my
planes ..
so if there's any issues they're pretty minor ones. So while I'm not
inflexible on price ..
using the prebuy and a discrepensy list to try to haggle the price down
...
just don't
work.

You're sure that any issues will be minor ones? Often, having a
different A&P look at a plane will uncover a problem that wasn't
noticed by the current one. I'd say you'd have to qualify your
statement above. If the prebuy uncovered significant discrepancies
that you did not know about (or tell him about), why shouldn't the
seller expect you to adjust the price accordingly.

I agree in general that a buyer who wants to nitpick minor items
into big price adjustments should probably be shown the door. But on
the other hand, as a buyer, the prepurchase inspection will probably
be the single biggest factor in determining the true value of the
airplane.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

On 4 Mar 2004 15:36:15 -0800, (John Galban) wrote:

"Roger Tracy" wrote in message . ..
snip
I don't buy junk. I don't fly junk. I take care of my
planes ..
so if there's any issues they're pretty minor ones. So while I'm not
inflexible on price ..
using the prebuy and a discrepensy list to try to haggle the price down ..
just don't
work.

You're sure that any issues will be minor ones? Often, having a
different A&P look at a plane will uncover a problem that wasn't
noticed by the current one. I'd say you'd have to qualify your
statement above. If the prebuy uncovered significant discrepancies
that you did not know about (or tell him about), why shouldn't the
seller expect you to adjust the price accordingly.

I agree in general that a buyer who wants to nitpick minor items
into big price adjustments should probably be shown the door. But on
the other hand, as a buyer, the prepurchase inspection will probably
be the single biggest factor in determining the true value of the
airplane.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

My thought is, how many airplanes (percentage-wise) would pass the
"gauntlet" as-it-were (as it is being described here) without some
other mechanic picking up some previously missed item or items? I
mean, how many airplanes (in our aging fleet) are truly squeaky clean?

For those airplanes that are squeaky clean, what is that worth in the
marketplace? Might it be worth a premium over what might be called
a "standard" (going) price? In the collector / vintage car market,
there are rather well defined categories with regards to pedigree,
condition, originality, etc. Original cream puffs or expertly
restored examples bring top dollar. Junk brings bottom dollar, with
everything in-between.

Like another poster stated, these airplanes are getting old (50+
years in many cases). There are completely, lovingly restored
cream-puff airplanes out there for sale, but the owners of such are
not exactly giving them away. On the other end of the spectrum, there
are complete pieces of worn out junk out there as well, masquerading
as good, solid airplanes.

I'm inclined to think along the lines of, does the current "accepted
market value" for a particular type of airplane mean it needs to
be a perfect / cream puff example? I think if you're looking for a
perfect, "cream-puff" airplane, you should be prepared to pay for it.
Suffice it to say, it will be cheaper to pay top dollar for a cream
puff as opposed to buying a junker and trying to make cream puff out
of it (at least if you just write checks to have it restored as
opposed to doing it yourself). If you're looking for a deal too good
to be true, it probably is, so be careful out there.

Somewhere between these two extremes, (junkers & cream puffs) good
airplanes can be bought that will bring years of good service &
enjoyment.

Bela P. Havasreti

Good points. The "accepted market value" is for an average airplane. The
average airplane gets repaired when it is unairworthy and issues are
deferred if possible. All the owners here think that their airplanes are
"well maintained" so it is like the situation with drivers, 97% of whom
think that they are better than average.

Mike
MU-2

"Bela P. Havasreti" wrote in message
news
On 4 Mar 2004 15:36:15 -0800, (John Galban) wrote:

"Roger Tracy" wrote in message
. ..
snip
I don't buy junk. I don't fly junk. I take care of my
planes ..
so if there's any issues they're pretty minor ones. So while I'm not
inflexible on price ..
using the prebuy and a discrepensy list to try to haggle the price down
...
just don't
work.

You're sure that any issues will be minor ones? Often, having a
different A&P look at a plane will uncover a problem that wasn't
noticed by the current one. I'd say you'd have to qualify your
statement above. If the prebuy uncovered significant discrepancies
that you did not know about (or tell him about), why shouldn't the
seller expect you to adjust the price accordingly.

I agree in general that a buyer who wants to nitpick minor items
into big price adjustments should probably be shown the door. But on
the other hand, as a buyer, the prepurchase inspection will probably
be the single biggest factor in determining the true value of the
airplane.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

My thought is, how many airplanes (percentage-wise) would pass the
"gauntlet" as-it-were (as it is being described here) without some
other mechanic picking up some previously missed item or items? I
mean, how many airplanes (in our aging fleet) are truly squeaky clean?

For those airplanes that are squeaky clean, what is that worth in the
marketplace? Might it be worth a premium over what might be called
a "standard" (going) price? In the collector / vintage car market,
there are rather well defined categories with regards to pedigree,
condition, originality, etc. Original cream puffs or expertly
restored examples bring top dollar. Junk brings bottom dollar, with
everything in-between.

Like another poster stated, these airplanes are getting old (50+
years in many cases). There are completely, lovingly restored
cream-puff airplanes out there for sale, but the owners of such are
not exactly giving them away. On the other end of the spectrum, there
are complete pieces of worn out junk out there as well, masquerading
as good, solid airplanes.

I'm inclined to think along the lines of, does the current "accepted
market value" for a particular type of airplane mean it needs to
be a perfect / cream puff example? I think if you're looking for a
perfect, "cream-puff" airplane, you should be prepared to pay for it.
Suffice it to say, it will be cheaper to pay top dollar for a cream
puff as opposed to buying a junker and trying to make cream puff out
of it (at least if you just write checks to have it restored as
opposed to doing it yourself). If you're looking for a deal too good
to be true, it probably is, so be careful out there.

Somewhere between these two extremes, (junkers & cream puffs) good
airplanes can be bought that will bring years of good service &
enjoyment.

Bela P. Havasreti