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Club Management Issue



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 29th 04, 05:03 PM
Dave S
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Peter,

I want to clarify and perhaps disagree with a point you are making...

If the recovery pilot is not a commercial pilot, but is doing the club's
bidding in returning the aircraft, I dont see the problem with the club
billing the FLIGHT TIME of the recovered airplane to the ABANDONING
pilot. The abandoning pilot would have had to pay the flight time to
return the aircraft if he had flown the plane home hisself. I am of the
firm conviction if you abandon a plane 3 hours from home, you should be
prepared to pay for the flight time (i.e. WET RENTAL RATE) of that plane
to get it home, and I dont see where a commercial certificate comes into
play.

Our club does not pay any kind of stipend to members who perform a
recovery, regardless of their rating.

In this particular recovery, though, there appears to have been
instruction (revenue) which muddies the whole who pays what issue.

In the two instances where I have left club planes out, my first phone
call was to the owner of the aircraft (they are very involved, actively
managing the planes) and letting them take lead on deciding how to
handle it. Our club's maintenance officer can only authorize up to $300
in maintenance without owner approval anyways, and as a general rule,
our club's maintenance officer's routine duties involve maintenance at
the base. Any situations that deviate from the norm fall back on the owners.

Dave

Peter Duniho wrote:

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...

That's the way that my vote will probably go as well. Again, I agree with
every point you make but I still come down on the other side of the issue.



Obviously, I disagree. But as long as the club is clear about the policy, I
guess they can set whatever policy they want.

However, just keep in mind that, just as the private pilot renter would be
required by FAR to pay for the flight back, should he choose to stay with
the plane until it's fixed, the club can only legally bill back the cost of
having someone else fly the plane back if that someone else has a commercial
certificate. Otherwise, the person flying the plane back is required to pay
for the flight.

Pete



  #2  
Old March 29th 04, 06:22 PM
Peter Duniho
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"Dave S" wrote in message
news
[...]
If the recovery pilot is not a commercial pilot, but is doing the club's
bidding in returning the aircraft, I dont see the problem with the club
billing the FLIGHT TIME of the recovered airplane to the ABANDONING
pilot.


The FAA does not agree with you. If the "abandoning pilot" were billed for
the flight time, then that means the pilot actually flying the plane would
not be paying for the flight time, and if that pilot holds only a private
certificate, that is clearly against the FARs.

Pete


  #3  
Old March 30th 04, 01:04 AM
Dave S
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Peter,

I have flown free of charge in someone elses plane, rental or
what-have-you for purposes of pleasure or mutual interest. Does that
count as a commercial operation too? Is my license in peril in your mind
because of that? (I'm a private pilot).

Dave

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Dave S" wrote in message
news
[...]
If the recovery pilot is not a commercial pilot, but is doing the club's
bidding in returning the aircraft, I dont see the problem with the club
billing the FLIGHT TIME of the recovered airplane to the ABANDONING
pilot.



The FAA does not agree with you. If the "abandoning pilot" were billed for
the flight time, then that means the pilot actually flying the plane would
not be paying for the flight time, and if that pilot holds only a private
certificate, that is clearly against the FARs.

Pete



  #4  
Old March 30th 04, 02:07 AM
Peter Duniho
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"Dave S" wrote in message
ink.net...
I have flown free of charge in someone elses plane, rental or
what-have-you for purposes of pleasure or mutual interest. [...]
Is my license in peril in your mind
because of that? (I'm a private pilot).


Yes. If someone other than you paid for the direct operating expenses,
that's a clear violation of the pro-rata cost sharing provision in 61.113.
As far as the FAA is concerned, not being charged is the same as being
charged and being compensated at 100%.

That's assuming the owner of the airplane paid for those expenses. It
becomes even MORE problematic for the private pilot flying for nothing if
some third party pays those expenses, as is being suggested here.

Pete


  #5  
Old March 30th 04, 03:10 PM
Darrel Toepfer
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Peter Duniho wrote:
"Dave S" wrote...

I have flown free of charge in someone elses plane, rental or
what-have-you for purposes of pleasure or mutual interest. [...]
Is my license in peril in your mind
because of that? (I'm a private pilot).


Yes. If someone other than you paid for the direct operating expenses,
that's a clear violation of the pro-rata cost sharing provision in 61.113.
As far as the FAA is concerned, not being charged is the same as being
charged and being compensated at 100%.

That's assuming the owner of the airplane paid for those expenses. It
becomes even MORE problematic for the private pilot flying for nothing if
some third party pays those expenses, as is being suggested here.


Pete, you're leaving out that a charity can pay 100% of the flight
costs...
  #6  
Old March 30th 04, 06:34 PM
Peter Duniho
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"Darrel Toepfer" wrote in message
.. .
Pete, you're leaving out that a charity can pay 100% of the flight
costs...


That has nothing to do with the operation being considered here.


  #7  
Old March 30th 04, 03:49 PM
Dave S
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Thanks.. sounds like we need our club to review things, and perhaps get
a letter of opinion from the FAA/FSDO and/or possibly change our SOP's.

In intent, I would like to say we dont want to violate the FAR's but at
the same time we want to hold our club members responsible for expenses
incurred by them leaving the aircraft away from its base. This sounds
like its going to be an interesting meeting this month.

Dave

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Dave S" wrote in message
ink.net...

I have flown free of charge in someone elses plane, rental or
what-have-you for purposes of pleasure or mutual interest. [...]
Is my license in peril in your mind
because of that? (I'm a private pilot).



Yes. If someone other than you paid for the direct operating expenses,
that's a clear violation of the pro-rata cost sharing provision in 61.113.
As far as the FAA is concerned, not being charged is the same as being
charged and being compensated at 100%.

That's assuming the owner of the airplane paid for those expenses. It
becomes even MORE problematic for the private pilot flying for nothing if
some third party pays those expenses, as is being suggested here.

Pete



  #8  
Old March 30th 04, 06:36 PM
Peter Duniho
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"Dave S" wrote in message
k.net...
In intent, I would like to say we dont want to violate the FAR's but at
the same time we want to hold our club members responsible for expenses
incurred by them leaving the aircraft away from its base.


If that's your goal, the solution is to make sure you hire a commercial
pilot to fly stranded airplanes back. Since you're passing the costs back
to the original renter anyway, you should have no problem with that. It's
just an extra administrative hassle, is all.

You may even be able to find commercial pilots willing to do the task for no
other compensation than the free use of the airplane. Hours are hours,
after all.

Pete


 




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