Mooney drops into my backyard

David Megginson wrote:

Have you had your own plane up since the accident? I know that it would
probably be hard for me to get back in the first time if I'd seen the
aftermath of something like that.

My plane is in the paint shop, should be out any day now, but I took the
opportunity to go get some training in another Mooney, and I found the images of
the crash colored that experience.

The instructor took me deep into a stall, something I've never tried in a
Mooney. Now in my Cherokee, I could hold the yoke full back in my lap for as
long as I wanted to (or until I hit the ground, I suppose) and keep the wings
level using rudder, descending at a pretty good clip, but completely under
control. Not so with the Mooney: the wing drop in the stall was too fast to
correct for with rudder and I found myself oscillating left-right in roll and
unable to synchronize the corrections with the diversions. If we had continued,
I'm sure we would have been on our backs in short order.

I couldn't help thinking about the folks that crashed, probably (IMO) after loss
of control of some kind.

Dave Butler wrote:

The instructor took me deep into a stall, something I've never tried in
a Mooney. Now in my Cherokee, I could hold the yoke full back in my lap
for as long as I wanted to (or until I hit the ground, I suppose) and
keep the wings level using rudder, descending at a pretty good clip, but
completely under control.

Yes, that's been my experience in both the 172's I trained in and my
Warrior. It's probably because they're trainers: the manufacturers designed
the controls so that you just cannot pull the yoke back far enough for a
full stall, unless you enter from a steep turn or whip the yoke back very
quickly into an accelerated stall.

Not so with the Mooney: the wing drop in the
stall was too fast to correct for with rudder and I found myself
oscillating left-right in roll and unable to synchronize the corrections
with the diversions. If we had continued, I'm sure we would have been on
our backs in short order.

That may just be the cost of the Mooney's speed, though I'm just guessing --
less wing twist would mean less drag, but also less control around the
stall; more elevator travel is probably necessary for a plane with a bigger
speed range.


All the best,


David

In article gers.com,
David Megginson wrote:



It's probably because they're trainers: the manufacturers designed
the controls so that you just cannot pull the yoke back far enough for a
full stall, unless you enter from a steep turn or whip the yoke back very
quickly into an accelerated stall.

Don't believe that. Have you ever done stalls with someone in the rear
seat? Stall practice is normally done solo or with you and a CFI...CG
is well forward. Move the CG back (still well within limits) and you'll
find you have plenty of elevator to stall the airplane.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Dale wrote:

Don't believe that. Have you ever done stalls with someone in the rear
seat? Stall practice is normally done solo or with you and a CFI...CG
is well forward. Move the CG back (still well within limits) and you'll
find you have plenty of elevator to stall the airplane.

That makes sense -- unfortunately, there's no way for me to try it legally
(or, I presume, safely).


All the best,


David

In article ers.com,
David Megginson wrote:



That makes sense -- unfortunately, there's no way for me to try it legally
(or, I presume, safely).

There is nothing illegal or unsafe about doing stalls with pax in the
rear seats. The airplane was certified doing stalls at the aft CG limit.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Provided you don't exceed the bank and pitch limits for normal flight putting
you in the acrobatic category. IIRC, it is 60 deg bank and 30 deg pitch.

Dale wrote:

In article ers.com,
David Megginson wrote:


That makes sense -- unfortunately, there's no way for me to try it legally
(or, I presume, safely).

There is nothing illegal or unsafe about doing stalls with pax in the
rear seats. The airplane was certified doing stalls at the aft CG limit.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Ray Andraka wrote:

Dale wrote:

There is nothing illegal or unsafe about doing stalls with pax in the
rear seats. The airplane was certified doing stalls at the aft CG limit.

Provided you don't exceed the bank and pitch limits for normal flight putting
you in the acrobatic category. IIRC, it is 60 deg bank and 30 deg pitch.

You'd have to make sure you stay out of the utility category, since only
normal category in my Warrior allows backseat passengers or baggage.

Actually, I had remembered that intentional stalls were in the utility
category, but a quick glance at my POH showed me that I was mistaken.
Thanks to Dale for the clarification and to Ray for the extra comment.


All the best,


David

In article gers.com, David
Megginson writes:

Yes, that's been my experience in both the 172's I trained in and my
Warrior. It's probably because they're trainers: the manufacturers designed
the controls so that you just cannot pull the yoke back far enough for a
full stall, unless you enter from a steep turn or whip the yoke back very
quickly into an accelerated stall.


Peoblem (or solution) is not in pulling the yoke back far enough. The wing has
enough wash out (twist) that the inboard part stalls before the out board part
and you lose enough lift to start the mush down.

Chuck

PaulaJay1 wrote:

Peoblem (or solution) is not in pulling the yoke back far enough. The wing has
enough wash out (twist) that the inboard part stalls before the out board part
and you lose enough lift to start the mush down.

It's a combination of the two: you limit elevator or stabilator travel, and
then use wing twist to make it more likely that the plane will be
controllable on the edge of stall. I'm pretty sure that that twist adds
drag, though.


All the best,


David