slightly high aluminum in an IO-360

In article ,
(Robert M. Gary) writes:

IO-360-A3B6
SFNEW 682
At each 50 hours change I've had...
7, 10, 25, 13 (short sample), 24, 23 ppm

I don't think I have an alumimum dip stick (at least my A&P says I
don't). I'm not finding anything in the filter.

I'm in California so everything is pretty pricey. Should I spend a
grand or so having the cylinders boroscoped?


Robert,
The IO360 in my Archer has about the same hours and the last three readings
have been 14, 10, 12 for the Al. Cleve Tech Center ( and my A&P) say that is
OK. Yours is a little higher but if the "experts" say OK the watchfull waiting
seems to be in order. The Troubleshooting Guide from Cleve Tech suggests less
than 10 and the sources can be from "Bushings, Some Bearings, Pistons, Turbo
Charger, Compressor Wheels". Seems to me (no expert) that the borscope would
not answer your question anyway.

LOL and keep watching.

Chuck

(PaulaJay1) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Robert M. Gary) writes:

IO-360-A3B6
SFNEW 682
At each 50 hours change I've had...
7, 10, 25, 13 (short sample), 24, 23 ppm

I don't think I have an alumimum dip stick (at least my A&P says I
don't). I'm not finding anything in the filter.

I'm in California so everything is pretty pricey. Should I spend a
grand or so having the cylinders boroscoped?


Robert,
The IO360 in my Archer has about the same hours and the last three readings
have been 14, 10, 12 for the Al. Cleve Tech Center ( and my A&P) say that is
OK. Yours is a little higher but if the "experts" say OK the watchfull waiting
seems to be in order. The Troubleshooting Guide from Cleve Tech suggests less
than 10 and the sources can be from "Bushings, Some Bearings, Pistons, Turbo
Charger, Compressor Wheels". Seems to me (no expert) that the borscope would
not answer your question anyway.

LOL and keep watching.

Chuck

There have been several ADs against the aluminum piston pin plugs in
Lycomings. Many mechanics are in the habit of ignoring ADs, and the
disintegrating plugs go on falling apart until the pin hits the
cylinder and grooves it. It might be wise to do an AD search to see
where your airplane might be behind.

Dan

(PaulaJay1) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Robert M. Gary) writes:

IO-360-A3B6
SFNEW 682
At each 50 hours change I've had...
7, 10, 25, 13 (short sample), 24, 23 ppm

I don't think I have an alumimum dip stick (at least my A&P says I
don't). I'm not finding anything in the filter.

I'm in California so everything is pretty pricey. Should I spend a
grand or so having the cylinders boroscoped?


Robert,
The IO360 in my Archer has about the same hours and the last three readings
have been 14, 10, 12 for the Al. Cleve Tech Center ( and my A&P) say that is
OK. Yours is a little higher but if the "experts" say OK the watchfull waiting
seems to be in order. The Troubleshooting Guide from Cleve Tech suggests less
than 10 and the sources can be from "Bushings, Some Bearings, Pistons, Turbo
Charger, Compressor Wheels". Seems to me (no expert) that the borscope would
not answer your question anyway.

I just called Lycoming. To my surprise, they were very helpful to me
considering I bought the engine from them 8 years ago. They said to
check the oil screen. I didn't even know the IO-360 had a screen. They
said that if I found any metal in the filter or the screen that I
could send it to them. They said they could tell EXACTELY what part of
the engine was making it. Apparently different parts of the engine's
aluminum have different alloys. So the piston pins have a different
aluminum than the dip stick, etc. He also said there was no charge for
this.
I've checked the filter beofre and not found anything. However, I've
never checked the screen. I'm not sure if my IA is doing that during
annual or not.

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

I've checked the filter beofre and not found anything. However, I've
never checked the screen. I'm not sure if my IA is doing that during
annual or not.

The screen should be checked every 50 tach hours. If the shop is changing the oil as
part of the annual, they almost certainly are checking the screen. If they aren't I
would wonder what else they're skipping.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ...
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

I've checked the filter beofre and not found anything. However, I've
never checked the screen. I'm not sure if my IA is doing that during
annual or not.

The screen should be checked every 50 tach hours. If the shop is changing the oil as
part of the annual, they almost certainly are checking the screen. If they aren't I
would wonder what else they're skipping.

I'm sure the shop is doing it but I do most of the oil changes myself
(except the one at annual). I'm not checking the screen. I'll have to
schedule some time with the A&P to have him show me how to do it. The
Lycoming guy said they've seen cases where a filter has come out clean
because there were so many chunks of big metal plugging up the screen.

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

I'm sure the shop is doing it but I do most of the oil changes myself
(except the one at annual). I'm not checking the screen.

I check mine every other oil change, whether I've run up 50 hours or not. My engine
is an O-320. On that, the screen looks like a horizontal drain plug on the sump.
Safety-wired, of course.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

In article ,
"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

I'm sure the shop is doing it but I do most of the oil changes myself
(except the one at annual). I'm not checking the screen.

I check mine every other oil change, whether I've run up 50 hours or not. My
engine
is an O-320. On that, the screen looks like a horizontal drain plug on the
sump.
Safety-wired, of course.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.



I check mine every oil change (25 hr) AND, I have a niobium magnet in
each drain plug, to collect all ferrous metals.

IMHO, the magnet asved my plane (possibly my life) a couple of years
ago, when I found some flattened pieces of steel, anout .05" across.
They were coming from the big roller bearing that serves as a thrust
bearing -- its cage had broken and it was making some noises which I
could hear at idle.

The steel drain plugs are the perfect place to put one or two of these
magnets, as they are self-attaching.

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

The steel drain plugs are the perfect place to put one or two of these
magnets, as they are self-attaching.

I replaced my drain plug with a quick-drain. That would certainly complicate using
the magnets on my aircraft.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

(Robert M. Gary) writes:

(PaulaJay1) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Robert M. Gary) writes:

IO-360-A3B6
SFNEW 682
At each 50 hours change I've had...
7, 10, 25, 13 (short sample), 24, 23 ppm

I don't think I have an alumimum dip stick (at least my A&P says I
don't). I'm not finding anything in the filter.

I'm in California so everything is pretty pricey. Should I spend a
grand or so having the cylinders boroscoped?


Robert,
The IO360 in my Archer has about the same hours and the last three readings
have been 14, 10, 12 for the Al. Cleve Tech Center ( and my A&P) say that is
OK. Yours is a little higher but if the "experts" say OK the watchfull waiting
seems to be in order. The Troubleshooting Guide from Cleve Tech suggests less
than 10 and the sources can be from "Bushings, Some Bearings, Pistons, Turbo
Charger, Compressor Wheels". Seems to me (no expert) that the borscope would
not answer your question anyway.

I just called Lycoming. To my surprise, they were very helpful to me
considering I bought the engine from them 8 years ago. They said to
check the oil screen. I didn't even know the IO-360 had a screen. They
said that if I found any metal in the filter or the screen that I
could send it to them. They said they could tell EXACTELY what part of
the engine was making it. Apparently different parts of the engine's
aluminum have different alloys. So the piston pins have a different
aluminum than the dip stick, etc. He also said there was no charge for
this.
I've checked the filter beofre and not found anything. However, I've
never checked the screen. I'm not sure if my IA is doing that during
annual or not.

What screen are they and you talking about, exactly? Are they under
the assumption that your engine does NOT have a spin-on oil filter?
Your last paragraph above suggests that your engine has a spin-on oil
filter.

There's also a screen inside the oil sump, but that's quite coarse.
If that screen is catching metal chunks, then your engine is self
destructing very rapidly.

-jav

On 26 May 2004 09:50:15 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
wrote:

I just called Lycoming. To my surprise, they were very helpful to me
considering I bought the engine from them 8 years ago. They said to
check the oil screen. I didn't even know the IO-360 had a screen. They
said that if I found any metal in the filter or the screen that I
could send it to them. They said they could tell EXACTELY what part of
the engine was making it. Apparently different parts of the engine's
aluminum have different alloys. So the piston pins have a different
aluminum than the dip stick, etc. He also said there was no charge for
this.

FWIW, they've been doing this for a long time. Filter analysis useta
be required prior to any work during a "piston pin" warranty claim.
Don't ask me how I know this.

Also, in most cases, piston pin plug material is plainly visible in
the oil filter, and sometimes evident on the suction strainer (the
screeny-lookin' thing in the sump). It looks like aluminum "hair" in
random lengths.

TC