Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172?

On 24 Aug 2004 12:15:08 -0700, (C Kingsbury) wrote:

Googling the group yielded little so here goes...

1979 172, overall average condition with mostly original radios and
wiring (one RT-385 recently replaced by a TKM radio, M1 Loran from a
few centuries ago)

The Cessna 300 ADF has gone flaky. The box tests fine on the bench
which suggests a wild goose chase may be in store to find the
gremlins. One of the two ILS approaches at my home field require ADF,
and a few fields I go to are ADF/GPS-only so I need one of the two.

My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the
ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup. I'll get
legal ADF and DME capability not to mention a moving map. Trying to
convince 4 other partners this is a good idea b/c it will make it
easier to sell shares in the future and even if they are VFR-only the
moving map is a big plus.

The local flight school says they've been spending an average of $6000
to do this with their birds at the local shop. Those of you who've
done this recently, any thoughts?

Bet,
-cwk.

Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something I
will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
equipment on board.

However, a recent install of my CNX80 was priced at 45 man-hours for the
installation (@ $60/hr = $2700). In addition to that labor cost, there was
also about $1,000 in extra equipment required not included in the price of
the CNX80.

I believe the unit you are considering will also require remote
annunciators of some sort, which would cost in addition to the labor and
cost of the unit itself.

$6,000 sounds about right. (My CNX80, installed, was about double that).


--ron

Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something I
will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
equipment on board.


I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL cases????

Dude wrote:
Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something I
will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
equipment on board.


I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL cases????

An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

(Currently in MI with a current Garmin West/Central DB. Guess where the
West/Central DB ends. )

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

The requirement for a current database, if any, comes from the Approved Flight
Manual Supplement. Not all AFMSs have this requirement, but most do. You have to
read the AFMS for -that- airplane. Many UPS GX50/60 installs used boiler-plate
AFMS verbage that does not include the requirement for a current database.
Instead it requires only that the PIC determines that the procedure in the
database matches the procedure as currently published, or something like that.

Furthermore, an IFR GPS can be a legal substitute for an ADF for many
operations, but not all. AIM 1-1-19:

"The GPS Approach Overlay Program is an authorization for pilots to use GPS
avionics under IFR for flying designated nonprecision instrument approach
procedures, except LOC, LDA, and simplified directional facility (SDF)
procedures. These procedures are now identified by the name of the procedure and
"or GPS" (e.g., VOR/DME or GPS RWY 15). Other previous types of overlays have
either been converted to this format or replaced with stand-alone procedures.
Only approaches contained in the current onboard navigation database are
authorized. The navigation database may contain information about nonoverlay
approach procedures that is intended to be used to enhance position orientation,
generally by providing a map, while flying these approaches using conventional
NAVAIDs. This approach information should not be confused with a GPS overlay
approach (see the receiver operating manual, AFM, or AFM Supplement for details
on how to identify these approaches in the navigation database)."

Dave Butler wrote:
An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

The requirement for a current database, if any, comes from the Approved Flight
Manual Supplement. Not all AFMSs have this requirement, but most do. You have to
read the AFMS for -that- airplane. Many UPS GX50/60 installs used boiler-plate
AFMS verbage that does not include the requirement for a current database.
Instead it requires only that the PIC determines that the procedure in the
database matches the procedure as currently published, or something like that.

True. The AFMS for my 430 installation does require a current DB and I
had forgotten that not all were that way.

My comment was more to the fact that the database has to be current for
the approach (i.e. the approach or waypoint must be in the database). As
I mentioned earlier, I'm currently visting outside of my normal database
coverage area. As I don't have the northern Michigan approaches in the
database, I can't do a GPS approach. Nor can I do any approach that
utilizes a NDB. Kinda limits my options.

Its the first time in the two years of flying behind the 430 that wish I
had kept my working ADF.





--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

Frank Stutzman wrote:
As I don't have the northern Michigan approaches in the
database, I can't do a GPS approach. Nor can I do any approach that
utilizes a NDB. Kinda limits my options.


I wouldn't mind being in N Mich right now, with or without database :-)

Dave

In article , Frank Stutzman
writes:

Its the first time in the two years of flying behind the 430 that wish I
had kept my working ADF.



I think that Canada still has NDB approaches that do not have a GPS overlay and
need am ADF to legally do them.

Chuck

Frank Stutzman wrote:

Dude wrote:

Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something I
will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
equipment on board.



I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL cases????


An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

Not necessary for the GX units.

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:49:11 GMT, "Dude" wrote:

I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL cases????

I don't know all of the in's and out's that apply to TSO129 certified
equipment, so my conclusions may be incorrect.

My understanding is that if you are flying IFR, and have a TSO129 box, and
require an alternate, the AIM says that:

"Any required alternate airport must have an approved instrument approach
procedure other than GPS that is anticipated to be operational and
available at the estimated time of arrival, and which the aircraft is
equipped to fly."

So if you are choosing an NDB approach at your alternate airport, you would
need to have a functioning ADF receiver on board.


--ron

"Dude" wrote in message
...
Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something
I
will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
equipment on board.


I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL
cases????

What do you mean by "ALL"? Some ILS approaches still require an ADF (i.e.,
BHB ILS 22).