Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172?

I had my Cherokee in for it's vfr transponder check the other day and
asked about radio upgrades. I have an Apollo/UPS/Garmin GX 65 so I
asked about support for it in case something goes wrong. The avionics
guy looked it up on a sheet of paper and said that Garmin is still
repairing them but there was a $400 blanket charge no matter how
trivial the problem. You sure want to make sure it's broke before you
send it in, he said.

He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
rating. Give me some guidance here group. Do I dump this kind of
money in a 1966 Cherokee 140 in slightly better than average condition
or do I invest in just a comm only to replace my fried navcom and call
it good? I've read a hundred threads in the past about this subject
and am still torn what to do. I'm reading in another thread about bad
support on the King KX-155's, too.

Joe Schneider
8437R


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On 24 Aug 2004 12:15:08 -0700, (C Kingsbury)
wrote:

Googling the group yielded little so here goes...

1979 172, overall average condition with mostly original radios and
wiring (one RT-385 recently replaced by a TKM radio, M1 Loran from
a
few centuries ago)

The Cessna 300 ADF has gone flaky. The box tests fine on the bench
which suggests a wild goose chase may be in store to find the
gremlins. One of the two ILS approaches at my home field require
ADF,
and a few fields I go to are ADF/GPS-only so I need one of the two.

My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace
the
ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup. I'll get
legal ADF and DME capability not to mention a moving map. Trying to
convince 4 other partners this is a good idea b/c it will make it
easier to sell shares in the future and even if they are VFR-only
the
moving map is a big plus.

The local flight school says they've been spending an average of
$6000
to do this with their birds at the local shop. Those of you who've
done this recently, any thoughts?

Bet,
-cwk.

Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not
something I
will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned"
units.
Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the
ADF
equipment on board.

However, a recent install of my CNX80 was priced at 45 man-hours for
the
installation (@ $60/hr = $2700). In addition to that labor cost,
there was
also about $1,000 in extra equipment required not included in the
price of
the CNX80.

I believe the unit you are considering will also require remote
annunciators of some sort, which would cost in addition to the labor
and
cost of the unit itself.

$6,000 sounds about right. (My CNX80, installed, was about double
that).


--ron

"JJS" jschneider@REMOVE SOCKSpldi.net wrote:
He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
rating.

If you don't plan on getting an instrument rating, why spend the money
to bring the plane up to legal IFR specs? The GX-60 gives you VFR GPS,
with moving map, and a COM radio. What more do you need for VFR
operation?

Roy Smith wrote:
If you don't plan on getting an instrument rating, why spend the money
to bring the plane up to legal IFR specs? The GX-60 gives you VFR GPS,
with moving map, and a COM radio. What more do you need for VFR
operation?

The GX-60 is an IFR GPS. Also, for me, even though I don't keep myself
IFR current anymore, it's nice to know the equipment is there "just in
case". Of course, in that scenario, the most important thing is probably
my wing leveler.

--- Jay



--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

Jay Masino wrote:

Roy Smith wrote:

If you don't plan on getting an instrument rating, why spend the money
to bring the plane up to legal IFR specs? The GX-60 gives you VFR GPS,
with moving map, and a COM radio. What more do you need for VFR
operation?


The GX-60 is an IFR GPS.

If you have it installed that way. If you don't want to have it
certified at the time of install it is just a VFR GPS. You could then
have it cetified at a later date.

The GX-60 is an IFR GPS.

If you have it installed that way. If you don't want to have it
certified at the time of install it is just a VFR GPS. You could then
have it cetified at a later date.


Any panel is VFR unless certified IFR.

JJS jschneider@remove sockspldi.net wrote:
: He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
: KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
: IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
: rating. Give me some guidance here group. Do I dump this kind of
: money in a 1966 Cherokee 140 in slightly better than average condition
: or do I invest in just a comm only to replace my fried navcom and call
: it good? I've read a hundred threads in the past about this subject
: and am still torn what to do. I'm reading in another thread about bad
: support on the King KX-155's, too.

: Joe Schneider
: 8437R

You are asking if you should install a KX-155 instead of what? Is the Garmin
GPS/COM kaput, or do you have another nav/com that died? In general, I agree with the
concensus that you don't want to upgrade avionics that you don't need or intend to
use. You can go cheaper routes than a KX-155 w/ GS if you never plan on using the
GS. The extra cost of that will most likely not be made up in resale. If you have an
inkling to get your rating, it tips the scales more. Need more information for real
advice.

-Cory

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering Ph.D. Graduate Student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

I wasn't clear at all, sorry. I've kinda unintentionally hijacked
this thread. My first comments were directed to the support for
Garmin / UPS / Apollo gps / coms, and they were on topic. Then I
mentioned possibly replacing a fried radio with a used audio panel and
King KX-155 and asked for guidance. My Apollo / Garmin is a GX65
which is the vfr version of the GX60. I like it and it works fine and
there is still support available to the tune of sending it in for a
blanket charge of $400. (Sounds like Garmin is pulling a Narco trick,
too).
The radio that fried is an old Genave 200 nav/com that was illegal to
transmit on but I kept it as a second radio because it all worked and
the nav portion was usable and the com portion might have helped out
in an emergency. It finally gave up the ghost and in the interest of
keeping the airplane in decent shape and upgrading a little at a time
I thought now might be the time to invest in either just a com radio
such as an ICOM IC-A200 or in some used equipment like a KX155. So,
what say yee wise ones? I doubt there is a slide in replacement for
the Genave.

You are asking if you should install a KX-155 instead of what? Is
the Garmin
GPS/COM kaput, or do you have another nav/com that died? In
general, I agree with the
concensus that you don't want to upgrade avionics that you don't
need or intend to
use. You can go cheaper routes than a KX-155 w/ GS if you never
plan on using the
GS. The extra cost of that will most likely not be made up in
resale. If you have an
inkling to get your rating, it tips the scales more. Need more
information for real
advice.

-Cory


************************************************** ********************
***
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering Ph.D. Graduate Student
*
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *

************************************************** ********************
***

I don't know of a slide in replacement for a Genave.
I do believe in having a backup COMM for sure. The ICOM IC-A200
would work fine for that.
For VFR also, it would be nice to have some kind of backup NAV. The
Michels, KX-155, and SL-30 are good choices and this would take care of the
extra COMM needed. Everybody doesn't have problems with KX-155s.
Get a comm with 760 channels. Also, a King KX 125 is available. Cost less
and has an internal cdi.
If you use the ICOM, a single VOR-NAV could be installed to provide some
VOR course guidance such as a King KN-53 with remote head.(kinda expensive
though)
Or, use the ICOM with a VFR Loran. It would give more features than a VOR.
And they are not expensive. I remember reading about a COMM/LORAN
once. Some Lorans don't have recent card update services available anymore.
One would have to inquire.
I "was" going to try to upgrade my Cessna each year by adding some new
equipment in a piece-meal fashion to spread the costs out over a longer
period
of time.The radio shop said don't bring them one radio at a time for them to
install.
It would cost me a lot more than getting everything at once because they
wouldn't
have to take everything out of the panel each time to connect all the
features
and components for each radio added later. Sounded like good advice.
The GX-65, by the way, is not merely a VFR version of the GX-60. It is an
IFR
approved unit, too, but for enroute and terminal operations only. It's just
can't be
approved for IFR approaches.
Visit Eastern Avionics site at http://www.avionix.com/aindex.html and view
the
Upgrades and Value Stacks pages for some ideas about panel upgrades and
radios to use.
Tom

"JJS" jschneider@REMOVE SOCKSpldi.net wrote in message
...
I wasn't clear at all, sorry. I've kinda unintentionally hijacked
this thread. My first comments were directed to the support for
Garmin / UPS / Apollo gps / coms, and they were on topic. Then I
mentioned possibly replacing a fried radio with a used audio panel and
King KX-155 and asked for guidance. My Apollo / Garmin is a GX65
which is the vfr version of the GX60. I like it and it works fine and
there is still support available to the tune of sending it in for a
blanket charge of $400. (Sounds like Garmin is pulling a Narco trick,
too).
The radio that fried is an old Genave 200 nav/com that was illegal to
transmit on but I kept it as a second radio because it all worked and
the nav portion was usable and the com portion might have helped out
in an emergency. It finally gave up the ghost and in the interest of
keeping the airplane in decent shape and upgrading a little at a time
I thought now might be the time to invest in either just a com radio
such as an ICOM IC-A200 or in some used equipment like a KX155. So,
what say yee wise ones? I doubt there is a slide in replacement for
the Genave.

You are asking if you should install a KX-155 instead of what? Is
the Garmin
GPS/COM kaput, or do you have another nav/com that died? In
general, I agree with the
concensus that you don't want to upgrade avionics that you don't
need or intend to
use. You can go cheaper routes than a KX-155 w/ GS if you never
plan on using the
GS. The extra cost of that will most likely not be made up in
resale. If you have an
inkling to get your rating, it tips the scales more. Need more
information for real
advice.

-Cory


************************************************** ********************
***
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering Ph.D. Graduate Student
*
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *

************************************************** ********************
***

rating. Give me some guidance here group. Do I dump this kind of
money in a 1966 Cherokee 140 in slightly better than average condition
or do I invest in just a comm only to replace my fried navcom and call
it good? I've read a hundred threads in the past about this subject

Your reading of the threads has probably told you NOT to invest in IFR
avionics you aren't going to use. Someone said it recently here---you
might buy an engine for the next guy, but any avionics you buy are for
yourself. You won't recover anything near the cost of them if you sell
the plane.

If you are not going to get the rating, leave it to the next owner to
certify the plane.

"JJS" jschneider@REMOVE SOCKSpldi.net wrote in message ...

guy looked it up on a sheet of paper and said that Garmin is still
repairing them but there was a $400 blanket charge no matter how
trivial the problem. You sure want to make sure it's broke before you
send it in, he said.

Wonder what the charge is for a newer (out of warranty) 430? Probably
similar.

He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
rating. Give me some guidance here group.

When my #1 Cessna RT-385 started heading South we replaced it with a
TKM radio- designed as a slide-in replacement. I wouldn't consider
buying used when there's an option to buy a good new unit at a
reasonable price. In our case the lack of install cost made a new
slide-in a cheaper fix than a used rewiring job. I feel differently
about the GPS because the new/used price delta is far larger.

IMHO you're best off with a simple replacement rather than upgrade. If
you;re not going to use it, then don't buy it. It might be one thing
if it was a Mooney or Bonanza where you'd be looking to sell it to
mostly IFR pilots somewhere down the road, but a VFR-only 140 ought to
be plenty popular.

Best,
-cwk.