Cost of ownership question

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:38:56 -0800, "Slip'er"
wrote:

All great feedback so far. Keep it coming. I have made a few posts about
my efforts to select a plane. I am definitely caught in analysis paralysis.
I am also caught up with fear of selling my stock when it is doing so well.
I sold 500 shares to buy Christmas presents, two weeks after I sold them
those 500 shares were worth an additional $3500. I know this matters little
in the big scheme, you can't time the market...etc. But I'm still planning
to hold out until the fall and review my plans. Back to the plane.

If you could accurately predict the future value of your stock,
finances would not be an issue... Until you sell it, the stock is
essentially worthless.

I have only flown Citabrias and Decathalons with a little bit of Piper
PA-140 / PA-180 and a PT-23. I love the Citabria/Decathalon but am luke
warm at best about the Archer/172/etc. This bird will be parked outside,
most likely.

In my opinion, parking a plane outside is false economy. You save a
little each month, but pay for it in other ways:
-Increased insurance rates
-Stong winds can damage control surfaces
-Plane will need new paint sooner (sandblasting effect and paint
oxidation)
-Tires wear out sooner
-Plane will continuously need a wash (washing a plane = major time
sink)
-Excessive heat/cold not good for gyros and radios
-Control surfaces are flying 8760hrs a year = worn out hinges and
cables. This is true even if you use a control lock, as the controls
still move a slight amount.
-Worrying every time a storm pulls thru
-It is a hell of a lot easier to conduct routine maintenance in a
hangar.
-A hangar gives you a place to store the massive piles of aviation
related crap that an aircraft owner ends up collecting.

Also, if you live in a cold weather climate, you will pat yourself on
the back when you get preheat and then pull the plane out of a heated
hangar.

Finally, I believe the Citabria's have fabric wings, which is not a
good choice for a permanent outdoor enviroment.

When I really think about it, this wouldn't be such a difficult decision if
I were single. The real pain I feel is that buying a plane feels so
selfish! This is a huge, expensive hobby for ME.
Yes, my kids will enjoy
it but I doubt my wife will fly with me until the kids are out of the house.
My kids have flown with me and enjoy it but truth be told...they'd rather
have a boat (my wife would too). Which clearly means...this is for me.

Flying is a luxury item for most of us, and at a minimum it is costly.
Catch a run of bad luck, and it can be ridiculously expensive. Flying
is one of the most amazing experiences in the world, and can add value
to your family (weekend vacations with the family, in and out business
trips vs. overnight stays) but it can also destroy a marriage if the
costs get out of hand and the family gets (or feels) shortchanged just
so the plane can keep flying. This can also work the other way - if
money is tight, most of us would make the correct decision of spending
the money on the family. However, that may mean an expensive airplane
sitting unused in the hangar, along with the fixed monthly costs of
insurance, hangar, and the eventual annual inspection looming.

If there is a possibility that finances could be tight in the future,
pilots are much better off renting or joining a flying club... That
greatly reduces if not eliminates the risk of having a massive one
time expense, and it also allows a graceful (and no cost) exit if
postponement of flying should be required.

-Nathan

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:36:08 GMT, Nathan Young
wrote:

If there is a possibility that finances could be tight in the future,
pilots are much better off renting or joining a flying club... That
greatly reduces if not eliminates the risk of having a massive one
time expense, and it also allows a graceful (and no cost) exit if
postponement of flying should be required.

Another benefit of renting/joining a flying club... You would get a
chance to fly several different aircraft types. This would help you
narrow in your choices for purchasing an aircraft.

In my opinion, parking a plane outside is false economy. You save a
little each month, but pay for it in other ways:

See my previous reply to false economy. Many of your examples are valid
points but SoCal is a very expensive place to hanger an aircraft and the
case may not hold up for this local area.

-Plane will continuously need a wash (washing a plane = major time
sink)

ROFL!!! This is California. Many airports won't let you wash your plane.
Water = Runoff = Ecological disaster!

-Worrying every time a storm pulls thru

Up until a few days ago, I would have said this isn't a big issue in San
Diego.

Finally, I believe the Citabria's have fabric wings, which is not a
good choice for a permanent outdoor enviroment.

I have seen Citabrias parked outside around here for years. Fabric holds up
"pretty" well and these are rental planes that are never cleaned or have UV
protectant on them. I would probably clean my plane much more and
definitely apply UV protectant a few times a year.

If there is a possibility that finances could be tight in the future,
pilots are much better off renting or joining a flying club...

There is ALWAYS a chance that finances could be tight in the future. That
is one of the reasons for my 5 year vacation from flying. The new plane
will be a cash purchase with a healthy reserve account for *most* unexpected
events. Very few clubs rent Citabrias. Try to schedule one for a weekend
and they laugh, that is when the rent them for aerobatics instruction.
Scheduling issues just drove me nuts so I decided to quit flying until I
could buy my own. Plus, a few times the aircraft came back with squaks that
weren't logged that I found during preflight. A couple of them made me
cancel the flight for safety...another reason I decided to quit renting
until I could buy.

Slip'er

I want to touch on your point about renting and being grounded.

I started flying early 2003. But before I did, I took a lot of time doing
tons of research on what would be best for me as far as owning or renting.
After I made the decision to rent, I then took an equally intesive search
for where. I visited all of the FBOs withing a two hour drive of me, I live
in Northern Cal, Bay Area, so that is a lot of flight schools to visit. The
whole purpose of this was to find the school that had the best aircraft, the
best maintenance program, the best instructors, etc. My thought was I
didn't wanna fly anything substandard and put my welfare in jeopardy. Well,
I finally made a decision on the flight school and have stuck with them ever
since I started close to 2 years ago (2 year anniversary Feb '05).

I guess my point is your woes about renting can be overcome if you do your
diligence and get yourself a great FBO. I have never been grounded for
surprise squaks, they have enough airplanes to handle their full load of
students and regular renters. They have an immaculate maintenance program.
And yes, most of their planes live outside.


"Slip'er" wrote in message
news:8f0Bd.20478$8e5.16655@fed1read07...
In my opinion, parking a plane outside is false economy. You save a
little each month, but pay for it in other ways:

See my previous reply to false economy. Many of your examples are valid
points but SoCal is a very expensive place to hanger an aircraft and the
case may not hold up for this local area.

-Plane will continuously need a wash (washing a plane = major time
sink)

ROFL!!! This is California. Many airports won't let you wash your plane.
Water = Runoff = Ecological disaster!

-Worrying every time a storm pulls thru

Up until a few days ago, I would have said this isn't a big issue in San
Diego.

Finally, I believe the Citabria's have fabric wings, which is not a
good choice for a permanent outdoor enviroment.

I have seen Citabrias parked outside around here for years. Fabric holds
up
"pretty" well and these are rental planes that are never cleaned or have
UV
protectant on them. I would probably clean my plane much more and
definitely apply UV protectant a few times a year.

If there is a possibility that finances could be tight in the future,
pilots are much better off renting or joining a flying club...

There is ALWAYS a chance that finances could be tight in the future. That
is one of the reasons for my 5 year vacation from flying. The new plane
will be a cash purchase with a healthy reserve account for *most*
unexpected
events. Very few clubs rent Citabrias. Try to schedule one for a weekend
and they laugh, that is when the rent them for aerobatics instruction.
Scheduling issues just drove me nuts so I decided to quit flying until I
could buy my own. Plus, a few times the aircraft came back with squaks
that
weren't logged that I found during preflight. A couple of them made me
cancel the flight for safety...another reason I decided to quit renting
until I could buy.

Slip'er

for where. I visited all of the FBOs withing a two hour drive of me, I live
in Northern Cal, Bay Area, so that is a lot of flight schools to visit. The
whole purpose of this was to find the school that had the best aircraft, the
best maintenance program, the best instructors, etc. My thought was I
didn't wanna fly anything substandard and put my welfare in jeopardy. Well,
I finally made a decision on the flight school and have stuck with them ever
since I started close to 2 years ago (2 year anniversary Feb '05).

I live in the bay area, and I'm did a similar search. I curious, which
flying club did you settle on?

I live in Hayward, and chose California Airways at KHWD.

I changed my name ... I didn't think "ohfuk24" was appropriate.

Actually, I too live in Hayward. Maybe we should get together sometime and
share stories. All the schools at HWD left a bad taste in my mouth. Along
with the problem of being smack dab in the midde of OAKs charlie airspace I
decided to go with a school at Livermore (LVK). The school is Ahart
Aviation and I would probably recommend them to anyone.

You can get them at their website at http://www.ahart.com

Please feel free to email me personally anytime and maybe we can start up a
new friendship.


wrote in message
news:1104454261.e35b32eb4f2ab8273010637f85d424ee@t eranews...

for where. I visited all of the FBOs withing a two hour drive of me, I
live
in Northern Cal, Bay Area, so that is a lot of flight schools to visit.
The
whole purpose of this was to find the school that had the best aircraft,
the
best maintenance program, the best instructors, etc. My thought was I
didn't wanna fly anything substandard and put my welfare in jeopardy.
Well,
I finally made a decision on the flight school and have stuck with them
ever
since I started close to 2 years ago (2 year anniversary Feb '05).

I live in the bay area, and I'm did a similar search. I curious, which
flying club did you settle on?

I live in Hayward, and chose California Airways at KHWD.

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:56:45 GMT, "Shane O"
wrote:

I changed my name ... I didn't think "ohfuk24" was appropriate.

Actually, I too live in Hayward. Maybe we should get together sometime and

Sounds good. If nothing else, I plan to start IFR training soon, so I
could use a safety pilot.

share stories. All the schools at HWD left a bad taste in my mouth. Along

Really? I'm happy with Cal Airways. At least they have a Skylane, and
I've been flying it exclusively.

with the problem of being smack dab in the midde of OAKs charlie airspace I
decided to go with a school at Livermore (LVK). The school is Ahart
Aviation and I would probably recommend them to anyone.

Yeah, all the airspace around Hayward is a pain in the ass. Oakland
Class C, SFO class B, SJC class C, it's like flying through a giant
jigsaw puzzle.

I always try to get flight following, and when you do, they normally
do your clearances automatically for you, as well as let you know
about other traffic, most of which I'd never see if they didn't tell
me about them.


You can get them at their website at http://www.ahart.com

It looks like a nice club, but I didn't want to have to drive a half
hour or more to fly. Hayward airport is a 10 minute drive.

Please feel free to email me personally anytime and maybe we can start up a
new friendship.

Sounds good. My email address displayed here is incomplete for spam
protection. It's add "dsl" after "fiero" to email me.

I visited all of the FBOs withing a two hour drive of me, I live
in Northern Cal, Bay Area, so that is a lot of flight schools to visit.

Wow, that's serious research. My limit is about a 1 hour drive which gives
me 5 airports only 3 of which have FBOs. One of the big problems that I
have is that I am 99% interested in renting Citabrias / Decathalons and
about 1% interested in everything else. Very few clubs have taildraggers
and those that do usually only have 1 or 2 on the flight line. This isn't a
big pool for the aerobatic / tailwheel students. As such, scheduling is
always cumbersome especially for all-day or multi-day rentals.

Slip'er

Well I do believe that I missed your point about the type of plane you are
looking to rent. And yes, I agree they are few and far between and when
found, hard to schedule.

Shane O



"Slip'er" wrote in message
news:YF2Bd.20809$8e5.3027@fed1read07...
I visited all of the FBOs withing a two hour drive of me, I live
in Northern Cal, Bay Area, so that is a lot of flight schools to visit.

Wow, that's serious research. My limit is about a 1 hour drive which
gives
me 5 airports only 3 of which have FBOs. One of the big problems that I
have is that I am 99% interested in renting Citabrias / Decathalons and
about 1% interested in everything else. Very few clubs have taildraggers
and those that do usually only have 1 or 2 on the flight line. This isn't
a
big pool for the aerobatic / tailwheel students. As such, scheduling is
always cumbersome especially for all-day or multi-day rentals.

Slip'er