sold 310 -- now what?

markjen wrote:
I am not wedded to the need for a twin. I am looking for something
that
can give me 200 KTAS, can seat 4 to 6, has recent avionics, weather
detection (i.e., WX-500), autopilot and deice. My partner and I can
probably put together about $250K (max) for this plane. Any
suggestions
would be appreciated.

There is only one plane I know of that can meet these constraints:
P210.

A 210 will spend more time down than flying. Most A&Ps think of the 210
as their kid's college funds.

A later model Mooney (Ovation, etc) would be a good choice. The rear
seats on the later models are much larger than the mid (201) models,
and certified known ice is avialable (TKS).
A Bonanza would be a great choice. I know they offer a complete TKS
(world's best deicing system) but I'm not sure if they're certified
known-ice or not yet.

In general, I'd try to stick with TKS deicing system. Boots are always
troublesome because they can leak and only protect a very small amount
of the wing at the leading edge. The TKS system drips deicing fluid all
the way down the wing. There are several known-ice certified TKS
installations.
-Robert

On 4 Jan 2005 07:15:18 -0800, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

In general, I'd try to stick with TKS deicing system. Boots are always
troublesome because they can leak and only protect a very small amount
of the wing at the leading edge. The TKS system drips deicing fluid all
the way down the wing. There are several known-ice certified TKS
installations.

Do any of the aftermarket TKS installs have K-Ice approval? Last time
I checked (a while ago) they did not, which is a shame, because every
pilot I have talked to that has flown with TKS says the ice buildup is
non-existent and way better than boots.

Their website shows that at least the Baron, 210 and Caravan can
be certified for known ice. There's probably others.

http://www.flightice.com/contact.html



"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On 4 Jan 2005 07:15:18 -0800, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

In general, I'd try to stick with TKS deicing system. Boots are always
troublesome because they can leak and only protect a very small amount
of the wing at the leading edge. The TKS system drips deicing fluid all
the way down the wing. There are several known-ice certified TKS
installations.

Do any of the aftermarket TKS installs have K-Ice approval? Last time
I checked (a while ago) they did not, which is a shame, because every
pilot I have talked to that has flown with TKS says the ice buildup is
non-existent and way better than boots.

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 17:50:27 GMT, "Peter MacPherson"
wrote:

Their website shows that at least the Baron, 210 and Caravan can
be certified for known ice. There's probably others.

http://www.flightice.com/contact.html

Cool, thanks!

Just out of curiosity, if the system works well, what is the added value of
being "known ice" certified? The only thing I can think of is, if you get
into an accident, they could say "you flew into known icing without being
equipped, blah blah." But if the scuttlebutt that TKS works better than
boots is to be believed (plausible, certainly) then odds are that you would
still have gotten into the accident with boots, and the FAA could still say,
"you should have gotten out of there the minute you realized how bad the ice
was" and ding you anyway.

Now I can understand the downside of a system like that on the Cirrus which
has only a 30-minute reservoir for the de-icing fluid, but if you have a
4-hour tank, then why should you really care? Up here in the Northeast in
the winter everybody files to fly through areas of known ice in planes that
can't be equipped for it (e.g. a Skyhawk) and unless you end up in an
emergency nobody appears to care, it's caveat aviator all the way.

And in any case, a non-known-ice TKS system would be a meaningful
improvement over his old 310 with nothing, at least until you run out of
juice.

-cwk.

"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
newsHACd.848205$8_6.586133@attbi_s04...
Their website shows that at least the Baron, 210 and Caravan can
be certified for known ice. There's probably others.

http://www.flightice.com/contact.html



"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On 4 Jan 2005 07:15:18 -0800, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

In general, I'd try to stick with TKS deicing system. Boots are always
troublesome because they can leak and only protect a very small amount
of the wing at the leading edge. The TKS system drips deicing fluid all
the way down the wing. There are several known-ice certified TKS
installations.

Do any of the aftermarket TKS installs have K-Ice approval? Last time
I checked (a while ago) they did not, which is a shame, because every
pilot I have talked to that has flown with TKS says the ice buildup is
non-existent and way better than boots.

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:
Just out of curiosity, if the system works well, what is the added
value of
being "known ice" certified?

Legal is one reason. Another is that there is more to "Known Ice" than
deicing equipment. Once classic example was a Mooney 201 with full TKS
that crashed because its fuel vent froze over. The Mooney 231 (the
first year of known-ice cert) has a different fuel vent system.

Now I can understand the downside of a system like that on the Cirrus
which
has only a 30-minute reservoir for the de-icing fluid, but if you
have a
4-hour tank, then why should you really care?

Even the guys flying Citations don't hang around in the ice for 4
hours. Its just enough to get you through that altitude to another one.
Many of the known-ice planes are turbo'd. The known-ice is just a good
way to climb up through the ice into CAVU air above. The FAA send out a
letter to ownes of known-ice planes a couple years ago telling them not
to hang out in icing conditions. Many known-ice owners (like Richard
Collins and Mac McMillon of "Flying" rag) though it was funny the FAA
even mentioned that.


-Robert

Non-known ice TKS does not nessesarily work better than a KI approved booted
system. The TKS covered portion of the airplane may be fine but there may
be other problems like fuel vents icing up. Known ice certification is
granted after testing not just installing a bunch of parts.

The advantage of having a KI appoved system in addition to being tested is
that you can take off into actual or forecast icing conditions legally.

Mike
MU-2


"Colin W Kingsbury" wrote in message
k.net...
Just out of curiosity, if the system works well, what is the added value
of
being "known ice" certified? The only thing I can think of is, if you get
into an accident, they could say "you flew into known icing without being
equipped, blah blah." But if the scuttlebutt that TKS works better than
boots is to be believed (plausible, certainly) then odds are that you
would
still have gotten into the accident with boots, and the FAA could still
say,
"you should have gotten out of there the minute you realized how bad the
ice
was" and ding you anyway.

Now I can understand the downside of a system like that on the Cirrus
which
has only a 30-minute reservoir for the de-icing fluid, but if you have a
4-hour tank, then why should you really care? Up here in the Northeast in
the winter everybody files to fly through areas of known ice in planes
that
can't be equipped for it (e.g. a Skyhawk) and unless you end up in an
emergency nobody appears to care, it's caveat aviator all the way.

And in any case, a non-known-ice TKS system would be a meaningful
improvement over his old 310 with nothing, at least until you run out of
juice.

-cwk.

"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
newsHACd.848205$8_6.586133@attbi_s04...
Their website shows that at least the Baron, 210 and Caravan can
be certified for known ice. There's probably others.

http://www.flightice.com/contact.html



"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On 4 Jan 2005 07:15:18 -0800, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

In general, I'd try to stick with TKS deicing system. Boots are always
troublesome because they can leak and only protect a very small amount
of the wing at the leading edge. The TKS system drips deicing fluid all
the way down the wing. There are several known-ice certified TKS
installations.

Do any of the aftermarket TKS installs have K-Ice approval? Last time
I checked (a while ago) they did not, which is a shame, because every
pilot I have talked to that has flown with TKS says the ice buildup is
non-existent and way better than boots.

But a KI TKS system is better than a KI booted system.

In many respects yes, but in a few no. As far as keeping ice off the
airframe TKS is the best, better even than heated leading edges (which can
suffer from "run-back icing"). TKS is clearly better in large droplet
icing, at least for the surfaces with TKS, everything else is still a
problem. The downsides of TKS are weight of the fluid and making a mess in
the hanger.

The disadvantages of boots are that they are subject to static discharges
which make pin holes and also deteriorate over time. I guess that thy have
weight too (!!!) but nobody thinks about it since it is part of the empty
weight. With recipricating engines, reliabliity of the vacuum pumps is also
an issue. A frequent misconception about boots is that they do not clear
all the ice. This is true on a "per cycle" basis but the ice is removed on
subsequent cycles (the little pieces of ice adhering to the boots are not
the same little pieces of ice that were there 30 minutes ago.

Both systems require maitenance, the main item with boots is renewing the
preservatives and silicone surface treatment.

I think that the reason that many people seem to have a low opinion of boots
is a function of flying with 30yr old leaking (maybe flapping too) boots
being inflated by a worn out vacuum pump. You never hear the Citation or
Pilatus guys complaining about their boot's effectiveness.

Mike
MU-2





"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
But a KI TKS system is better than a KI booted system.

When you fly in a Great Lakes icer that is layering an inch a minute of
impact ice on the airframe, I don't care what you are flying, you are
gonna die... Even the jumbo cattle tubes with heated wings don't fly
IN an icing layer of that magnitude, they use their power to climb or
descend through it at 6000 fpm... Take a GA aircraft into known icing
conditions and you are playing russian roulette...

Denny