Engine Preheater - any good?

Matt Barrow wrote:

This "economy of scale" argument doesn't always explain the
perceived excess in price. Some things in aviation really are
ripoffs.

Agreed, so how does that translate to the item in question?

The item in question appears to be an electric space heater you could
buy at Kmart, Target, etc. for $20, with a couple of hoses attached to
fit in the cowling of an airplane. The price is $299. If I'm right and
the profit margin is around 1000% per unit, this strikes me as
excessive. And THREE HOURS to preheat?!?! The Kmart preheating solution
I mentioned in an earlier article can do it in two or less.

The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by the
FAA standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than for
automobiles, even though they are the exact same thing.

So NOTHING in aviation outside of FAA mandates is a ripoff? You might
want to rethink, or rephrase, those words.

Jim Rosinski

"Jim Rosinski" wrote in message
ups.com...
Matt Barrow wrote:

This "economy of scale" argument doesn't always explain the
perceived excess in price. Some things in aviation really are
ripoffs.

Agreed, so how does that translate to the item in question?

The item in question appears to be an electric space heater you could
buy at Kmart, Target, etc. for $20, with a couple of hoses attached to
fit in the cowling of an airplane. The price is $299. If I'm right and
the profit margin is around 1000% per unit, this strikes me as
excessive.

THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters from
Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come on...why don't
you?

And THREE HOURS to preheat?!?! The Kmart preheating solution
I mentioned in an earlier article can do it in two or less.

See previous two sentences.

Oh, the Rube Goldberg's of the world!!

The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by the
FAA standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than for
automobiles, even though they are the exact same thing.

So NOTHING in aviation outside of FAA mandates is a ripoff? You might
want to rethink, or rephrase, those words.

You might want to think of the word "voluntary".

Matt Barrow wrote:

THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters from
Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come on...why
don't you?

Because I don't want to.

Oh, the Rube Goldberg's of the world!!

Rube Goldberg's what?

The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by
the FAA standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than

for automobiles, even though they are the exact same thing.

So NOTHING in aviation outside of FAA mandates is a ripoff? You
might want to rethink, or rephrase, those words.

You might want to think of the word "voluntary".

:
What does that non-answer have to do with anything I said?

Jim Rosinski

Jim Rosinski wrote:
Matt Barrow wrote:


THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters from
Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come on...why
don't you?


Because I don't want to.

Because you know that you couldn't make any money selling at that price,
which is the reason that nobody else does it either.


Matt

"Jim Rosinski" wrote in message
ups.com...
Matt Barrow wrote:

THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters from
Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come on...why
don't you?

Because I don't want to.

No, it's sooooo much easier to **** & moan and throw stones.


Oh, the Rube Goldberg's of the world!!

Rube Goldberg's what?

The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by
the FAA standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than

for automobiles, even though they are the exact same thing.

So NOTHING in aviation outside of FAA mandates is a ripoff? You
might want to rethink, or rephrase, those words.

You might want to think of the word "voluntary".

:
What does that non-answer have to do with anything I said?

A BMW costs $60,000 and doesn't cost that much more to produce than a Honda
Accord: is that a rip-off?

A "rip-off" is something you can't so without or something involving theft,
not something you acquire voluntarily.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

Matt Barrow wrote:

THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters
from
Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come
on...why
don't you?

Because I don't want to.

No, it's sooooo much easier to **** & moan and throw stones.

I'm neither ****ing nor moaning. For whatever reason I don't know, but
you seem to want to turn a civil discussion into a flame war. The
original poster asked for input on a pre-heater he was considering.
Unfortunately, no one in this forum had any experience with the
specific item he pointed us to. Next best thing is to analyze the
vendor's claims and come up with an analysis. Mine says the item is
probably a ripoff. Others can, and have, disagreed with that
conclusion. I have no problem with that.

What does that non-answer have to do with anything I said?

A BMW costs $60,000 and doesn't cost that much more to produce than a
Honda Accord: is that a rip-off?

For the moment taking your assertion (implying that profit margins on
BMWs are vastly greater than those on Accords) as fact, I would say yes
the BMW is a ripoff. But then again I'd claim that any item with a
markup due to "yuppie appeal factor" is a ripoff. Just MHO.

A "rip-off" is something you can't so without or something involving
theft, not something you acquire voluntarily.

After puzzling over this statement and finally getting it to make some
sense by changing "so" to "do", it says something remarkable. You think
that anyone who purchases anything voluntarily has by definition not
been ripped off. Interesting definition.

Jim Rosinski

"Jim Rosinski" wrote in message
oups.com...
Matt Barrow wrote:

THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters
from
Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come
on...why
don't you?

Because I don't want to.

No, it's sooooo much easier to **** & moan and throw stones.

I'm neither ****ing nor moaning.

Um...yes, you are. You're ****ing that someone who makes a product that
isn't a rube goldberg contraption made in a garage is a rip-off.

For whatever reason I don't know, but
you seem to want to turn a civil discussion into a flame war.

Well, "civil" is a vague term; you called it a rip-off and cast numerous
aspersions.
In case you mis the point a "rip-off" is tantamount to THEFT.

The
original poster asked for input on a pre-heater he was considering.
Unfortunately, no one in this forum had any experience with the
specific item he pointed us to. Next best thing is to analyze the
vendor's claims and come up with an analysis. Mine says the item is
probably a ripoff. Others can, and have, disagreed with that
conclusion. I have no problem with that.
What does that non-answer have to do with anything I said?

A BMW costs $60,000 and doesn't cost that much more to produce than a
Honda Accord: is that a rip-off?

For the moment taking your assertion (implying that profit margins on
BMWs are vastly greater than those on Accords) as fact, I would say yes
the BMW is a ripoff.

So, are you saying that "profit margin" is a factor in whether an item is a
"rip-off" or not?

But then again I'd claim that any item with a
markup due to "yuppie appeal factor" is a ripoff. Just MHO.

Just an very ignorant and adolesent (not to mention presumtious and
self-effected) perspective.

A "rip-off" is something you can't so without or something involving
theft, not something you acquire voluntarily.

After puzzling over this statement and finally getting it to make some
sense by changing "so" to "do", it says something remarkable. You think
that anyone who purchases anything voluntarily has by definition not
been ripped off. Interesting definition.

Caveat emptor....otherwise know as being mature enough to make you own
decisions and live with them.Then, there's a whole industry wrapped around
"victimhood" and people just groan about it.

Grow up!

Jim Rosinski wrote:

The item in question appears to be an electric space heater you could
buy at Kmart, Target, etc. for $20, with a couple of hoses attached to
fit in the cowling of an airplane.

If it's really putting out air at 190 degrees, it's not any heater you can buy
at a retail outlet. A claim is also made that it has a thermostat that will
regulate the unit. The thermostats on typical heaters designed for home use
measure the ambient temperature of the air in the room, not the temperature of
the air flowing through the unit. This is, of course, a function of the location
of the thermostat, but someone had to do some design work here.

Seems to me to be somewhat more effort involved than just putting together a few
off-the-shelf parts.

George Patterson
He who marries for money earns every penny of it.

George Patterson wrote:

If it's really putting out air at 190 degrees, it's not any heater
you can buy at a retail outlet.

It puts out 500, 1000, or 1500 watts, which oddly enough are the same
power settings as on my Kmart "preheater". A weaker fan will result in
a higher temperature, a stronger fan a lower one. The temperature
itself is meaningless to someone trying to figure out how well this
thing is going to work. Marketing hype.

A claim is also made that it has a thermostat that will
regulate the unit. The thermostats on typical heaters designed for
home use measure the ambient temperature of the air in the room, not
the temperature of the air flowing through the unit. This is, of
course, a function of the location of the thermostat, but someone
had to do some design work here.

Not convincing. The temperature of the air is irrelevant. What matters
is the temperature of the engine and the oil.

Seems to me to be somewhat more effort involved than just putting
together a few off-the-shelf parts.

Maybe you're not cynical enough. Then again, maybe I'm too cynical.
Considering the other options available though (e.g. my cheap-ass
solution, or Red Dragon), $299 is a chunk of change for something like
this.
:
Jim Rosinski

Jim Rosinski wrote:

George Patterson wrote:


If it's really putting out air at 190 degrees, it's not any heater
you can buy at a retail outlet.


It puts out 500, 1000, or 1500 watts, which oddly enough are the same
power settings as on my Kmart "preheater". A weaker fan will result in
a higher temperature, a stronger fan a lower one. The temperature
itself is meaningless to someone trying to figure out how well this
thing is going to work. Marketing hype.

Yes, the temperature is meaningless up to a point. If it moves so much
air that the temperature never gets more than 5 degrees above ambient,
then it won't be a very good preheater. However, if the temperature of
the output air is at least as high as what you wish your engine
temperature to be, then it is heat output that matters rather than
temperature of the air.


A claim is also made that it has a thermostat that will
regulate the unit. The thermostats on typical heaters designed for
home use measure the ambient temperature of the air in the room, not
the temperature of the air flowing through the unit. This is, of
course, a function of the location of the thermostat, but someone
had to do some design work here.


Not convincing. The temperature of the air is irrelevant. What matters
is the temperature of the engine and the oil.

Yes, but the temperature of the air has an affect on that of the engine
and oil. The air temp has to be AT LEAST as high as what you wish for
your engine.


Seems to me to be somewhat more effort involved than just putting
together a few off-the-shelf parts.


Maybe you're not cynical enough. Then again, maybe I'm too cynical.
Considering the other options available though (e.g. my cheap-ass
solution, or Red Dragon), $299 is a chunk of change for something like
this.

Yes, it is a chunk of change, so better to build your own. I did that
with a "milk house" heater, some aluminum roof flashing and some
flexible dryer duct. It wasn't pretty, but it did the job for probably
$50 in parts. However, I also probably spent 3 hours of time so when
you factor that in, the commercial units don't look quite so overpriced.


Matt