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'They want to ban recreational flying...'



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 16th 03, 01:44 AM
Roger Halstead
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On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:26:18 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote:

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." wrote in message
...
(quoting the anti-noise compaigners)
We believe that if there is to be a recreational flying community, then it
must obtain at its own expense areas large enough to accommodate their

waste
noise without spilling over to adjacent properties in excess of the local
regulatory limits. At present, in most communities, the limit is 10

decibels
above background ambient levels.


Sounds like a comment from the noise pollution groups. They have some
real nut jobs and extremists over there. They also have some people
with legit complaints. It only takes a few minutes of reading to
realize that it'd be safer and more comfortable to live off the
approach end of a busy air force base than next door to some of them.

For most communities, the answer is most likely no. Otherwise no one
would be able to mow their lawn as a lawn mower is listed at something
like ... 40 db or more.. No many low flying aircraft exceed the sound
of a lawn mower, unless they have a two blade prop, a big engine and
are just departing the active..

3 db is just detectable...three barely detectable still isn't much.
Lawn mowers are *loud*, so I'd attribute the above statement to pretty
much BS ...

Is that 10db limit really a common restriction? I suppose they mean there
are local ordinances (nothing in the several CCR's I've read recently).
Small planes at 500ft probably exceed that bar.


Small planes at 500 feet over populated areas are already in violation
of the FARs unless taking off and landing. There, the neighbors are
pretty much SOL, although they can be a royal nuisance to the pilots.
More and more airports and communities are making it a requirement
that any noise complaints go on the property record for those who are
neighbors to an airport. So, they can complain, but it's gonna cost
them in the long run.


I must confess to a nimby moment last weekend. I just moved to a (lovely)
house on the side of the hill in Duvall, WA. Most everyone who has learned
to fly here has used the Snoqualmie Valley as a practice area: it's 20 miles
long by half a mile wide, populated only by cows and a prison farm, and even
contains a small square stand of trees that is perfect for the rectangular
course maneuver. Nobody who has spent more than half an hour looking for a
house in Duvall can be unaware of the planes that fly over the developments,
often below 1000agl, as they set up for the valley. Yet on Saturday morning,
after two tiring days unpacking boxes, I was *really* annoyed to be woken up
at 7am by that familiar drone. I am already much more aware of how
difference much a few hundred feet can make.


If only those who fight runway extensions could be so enlightened.
We had a group who opposed lengthening 18/36 from 3000 to 3800. With
that extra 800 feet I could be at pattern altitude by the time I go
over the subdivision. As it is ... I still go over at 200 to 500 feet
on climb out on a hot day.


It's also on a major route up to Arlington, but I only saw three or four
interesting transients this weekend.


We get complaints from the practice area where the students are still
a 1000 feet up and that is mostly swamp. One guy threatened to "take
a shot". He hung up when he figured out the manager was trying to
figure out where he was located.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

-- David Brooks


  #2  
Old July 16th 03, 02:03 AM
David Brooks
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"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:26:18 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote:


Is that 10db limit really a common restriction? I suppose they mean there
are local ordinances (nothing in the several CCR's I've read recently).
Small planes at 500ft probably exceed that bar.


Small planes at 500 feet over populated areas are already in violation
of the FARs unless taking off and landing.


It all depends on what the meaning of the word "congested" is. If I thought
of Duvall, WA as congested, I wouldn't have moved there.

-- David Brooks


  #3  
Old July 20th 03, 07:30 AM
Roger Halstead
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:03:58 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote:

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:26:18 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote:


Is that 10db limit really a common restriction? I suppose they mean there
are local ordinances (nothing in the several CCR's I've read recently).
Small planes at 500ft probably exceed that bar.


Small planes at 500 feet over populated areas are already in violation
of the FARs unless taking off and landing.


It all depends on what the meaning of the word "congested" is. If I thought
of Duvall, WA as congested, I wouldn't have moved there.


Doesn't really matter...congested or not the rule is a 1000 over and
2000 laterally.

I can go out and skim the tree tops (in sparsely populated areas), but
if I discover I just flew over some ones house out there, I violated
the FARs.

Don't fly low over towns, or rural subdivisions ... which would be
classed as congested areas, but that doesn't relieve the pilot from
not flying low over some ones home.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)


-- David Brooks


  #4  
Old July 16th 03, 10:53 AM
Cub Driver
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For most communities, the answer is most likely no. Otherwise no one
would be able to mow their lawn as a lawn mower is listed at something
like ... 40 db or more.. No many low flying aircraft exceed the sound
of a lawn mower, unless they have a two blade prop, a big engine and
are just departing the active..


The 10 db is probably at a specified distance, similar to what a
neighbor would experience. Say 300 feet? While a lawnmower would in
time deafen its rider (I wear earmuffs), the noise level drops off
pretty fast. The same is true of chainsaws.

Because an aircraft overhead is often a direct line to the hearer,
with much less stuff to soak up the sound, it's apt to be very loud at
500 or even 1000 feet. I live under the traffic pattern of a
"tradeport" so I hear a lot of airplane noise, mostly heavy jets.

This is a university town, and therefore a loud-party town. The
residents often complain about student parties with the loud-hailers
going in the night, and the police department has a noise-meter
(whatever) which it will loan out to folks trying to make a case. Very
rarely do they succeed. I'll ask for more information about this if
anyone is interested.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub
  #5  
Old July 20th 03, 07:38 AM
Roger Halstead
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On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:53:39 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:


For most communities, the answer is most likely no. Otherwise no one
would be able to mow their lawn as a lawn mower is listed at something
like ... 40 db or more.. No many low flying aircraft exceed the sound
of a lawn mower, unless they have a two blade prop, a big engine and
are just departing the active..


The 10 db is probably at a specified distance, similar to what a
neighbor would experience. Say 300 feet? While a lawnmower would in
time deafen its rider (I wear earmuffs), the noise level drops off
pretty fast. The same is true of chainsaws.


Your neighbors lawn mower is going to be a lot louder than 10 db even
at the far side of a normal lot.

You have to stop and realize how little 10 db really is.


Because an aircraft overhead is often a direct line to the hearer,
with much less stuff to soak up the sound, it's apt to be very loud at
500 or even 1000 feet. I live under the traffic pattern of a
"tradeport" so I hear a lot of airplane noise, mostly heavy jets.


When I go over here on the way back to the airport I'm usually headed
down hill at close to 200 MPH. When I depart I'm usually still near
full power and not much above 1000 feet. It's certainly noticeable,
but no where near as loud as the neighbors lawn mowers over 300 feet
away...and through the trees. And their lawn mowers are no where near
as loud as some guy's Beagles about 5 houses to the West.

So, I try to be a good neighbor even if I have absolutely no sympathy
to the people near the airport. The VOR 14 to MBS starts near here so
when the big jets are flying that they go overhead. Even the old
DC-9s aren't all that loud and most modern day jets are not as loud as
a Bonanza with a 2 blade prop on take off.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)


This is a university town, and therefore a loud-party town. The
residents often complain about student parties with the loud-hailers
going in the night, and the police department has a noise-meter
(whatever) which it will loan out to folks trying to make a case. Very
rarely do they succeed. I'll ask for more information about this if
anyone is interested.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub


  #6  
Old July 20th 03, 10:43 AM
Cub Driver
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full power and not much above 1000 feet. It's certainly noticeable,
but no where near as loud as the neighbors lawn mowers over 300 feet
away...and through the trees


I'm relieved to hear it (as it were!). I suppose we notice airplane
engines because they're out of the ordinary. Where I live, highway
noise is out of the ordinary, so motorcycles really bug
me--motorcycles being the one thing apart from sirens that I can hear
from Bay Road.

My houselot is 40 acres, and I can still hear my neighbor's lawnmower.
And of course I can hear the airplanes overhead. Since I am on the
water, of course I can hear all sorts of noise from there--even voices
in boats a mile away.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub
 




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