dropped in D

Interesting question. Without trying to look it up, I would say that it is
your responsibility to remain clear or make contact with Mc Entire Tower
when VFR.

You don't have a clearance of any sort so your path of flight as well as
altitude is at your discretion. If you are in Class B,C,D, then the
controller can give you vectors and altitudes but doesn't necessarily have
to under FF.

An example would be where you have established flight following and
announced that you are at 3,000ft. Then over Mc Entire, you decide to
descend to 2,000 feet. Nothing prevents you from to doing so under FF but
you would be compelled to contact the tower to enter the Class D.

But I'm just thinking off the top of my head.

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
I recently made a flight from Sumter, SC (SMS) to Columbia Metro
(CAE). Just after takeoff from Sumter, I contacted Shaw AFB approach,
told the controller that I was going to Columbia Metro, and got flight
following. Between Shaw class C airspace and Columbia class C
airspace there is Mc Entire ANGS class D airspace. As I approached Mc
Entire airspace, I figured that I was OK to enter because I had
established two-way communications with Shaw approach. After I got in
the middle of Mc Entire class D airspace, Shaw approach gave me "radar
services terminated, squawk VFR, for further flight following suggest
you contact Columbia approach on 133.4". Hmmmm.... Doesn't this mean
that the instant after he terminated me, that I was not in two-way
communication with the ATC facility (and unintentionally in violation
of 91.129(c)(1))? If so, what action should I have taken? Honestly,
I would have expected a handoff to either the Mc Entire tower
controller or to the Columbia approach controller, as opposed to a
"...suggest you contact...".

Also, 91.129(d) says "Each person who operates an aircraft in a class
D airspace area must maintain two-way radio communications with the
ATC facility having jurisdiction over that area." Where is "..the ATC
facility having jurisdiction over that area" defined? For example,
for the Mc Entire class D airspace, is this just the Mc Entire tower,
or do Shaw approach and Columbia approach also have jurisdiction over
that area? And if it is only the tower, then why didn't Shaw approach
hand me off to the Mc Entire tower prior to my entering the Mc Entire
class D airspace? (Note that the Shaw controller did not sound busy
and my flight path was such that it should have been obvious that I
was going through.)

Sorry for so many questions... I just want to do things 100% right
(well at least 90% of the time :-) )!

Arden

"Maule Driver" wrote in message r.com...
Interesting question. Without trying to look it up, I would say that it is
your responsibility to remain clear or make contact with Mc Entire Tower
when VFR.

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count? Normally I
think Shaw Approach provides approach ATC functions for Mc Entire.

You don't have a clearance of any sort so your path of flight as well as
altitude is at your discretion. If you are in Class B,C,D, then the
controller can give you vectors and altitudes but doesn't necessarily have
to under FF.

An example would be where you have established flight following and
announced that you are at 3,000ft. Then over Mc Entire, you decide to
descend to 2,000 feet. Nothing prevents you from to doing so under FF but
you would be compelled to contact the tower to enter the Class D.

I varied neither my heading nor my altitude.

Arden

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
m...

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count?

No.

My hypothesis is that the controller did himself and you a favor. McEntire
called and asked if anyone was talking to you, the controller dropped you,
and then replied, no. File the ASRS within ten days.

Flying VFR, there are no direction of flight restrictions below 3000 AGL, so
a climb to an altitude, 2600 AGL in most cases, allows you to avoid Class D.
If weather is a factor, circumnavigate the airspace or call the tower. For
the controller, simply advise of your intentions (climb, or leaving freq.).

--

Bob
PP-ASEL-IA, A/IGI

Robert Henry wrote:
"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
m...

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count?


No.

Yes, it does. Why would you think it doesn't? 14CFR 91.129
does not specify that the pilot must establish or maintain
communications with the control tower, simply with "the ATC
facility providing air traffic services". A radar facility
which provides approach services to a class D airport certainly
counts.

From 7110.65:
2-1-16 Surface Areas
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit
authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service
to an aircraft that will enter another facilities airspace

Note: the pilot is not expected to obtain his own authorization
through each area when in contact with a radar facility

My hypothesis is that the controller did himself and you a favor.

You can hypothesize anything you want, but if McEntire called
the radar controller and asked if anyone was talking to that
code in his airspace, the radar controller dropped the ball and
is in error. This is clearly spelled out in the regulations
he must follow.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...

Yes, it does. Why would you think it doesn't?
[14CFR 91.129
does not specify that the pilot must establish or maintain
communications with the control tower, simply with "the ATC
facility providing air traffic services". ]

14CFR 91.126d as referenced in 14CFR 91.129a?


A radar facility
which provides approach services to a class D airport certainly
counts.

According to whom? I see several references to the "ATC facility having
jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area." Can there be more than one
facility with that authority?

"Robert Henry" wrote in message
news:57hYa.26627$5f.25359@lakeread05...

14CFR 91.126d as referenced in 14CFR 91.129a?


Note that FAR 91.126(d) also begins with, "Unless otherwise authorized or
required by ATC,..."


§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G
airspace.

(d) Communications with control towers. Unless otherwise authorized or
required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft to, from, through, or on
an airport having an operational control tower unless two-way radio
communications are maintained between that aircraft and the control tower.
Communications must be established prior to 4 nautical miles from the
airport, up to and including 2,500 feet AGL. However, if the aircraft radio
fails in flight, the pilot in command may operate that aircraft and land if
weather conditions are at or above basic VFR weather minimums, visual
contact with the tower is maintained, and a clearance to land is received.
If the aircraft radio fails while in flight under IFR, the pilot must comply
with § 91.185.



According to whom? I see several references to the "ATC facility having
jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area." Can there be more than one
facility with that authority?


VFR towers actually have little authority over Class D airspace, about all
they can do is require VFR aircraft to remain clear of it. Authority and
responsibility for IFR and SVFR operations rests with the overlying Center
or approach control facility, although some of that is often delegated to
the tower.

"Robert Henry" wrote in message news:57hYa.26627$5f.25359@lakeread05...
"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...

Yes, it does. Why would you think it doesn't?
[14CFR 91.129
does not specify that the pilot must establish or maintain
communications with the control tower, simply with "the ATC
facility providing air traffic services". ]

14CFR 91.126d as referenced in 14CFR 91.129a?

91.126(d) is not referenced from 91.129(a). Rather 91.126 (the whole
section) is referenced from 91.129(a). And it seems that 91.126(a)
indicates that 91.126 is only relevant to persons operating an
aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G area. In
this particular instance, I was not in the vicinity of an airport that
was in a Class G area. The only airport that I was close to was Mc
Entire ANGS which is not in a Class G area (it is in a Class D area).
Therefore I'm thinking that 91.126 has no real relevancy to this
particular instance.

A radar facility
which provides approach services to a class D airport certainly
counts.

According to whom? I see several references to the "ATC facility having
jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area." Can there be more than one
facility with that authority?

This jurisdiction thing seems to be a big whole to me -- the FARs
reference "...the ATC facility having jurisdiction..." but nowhere
does the FAA make it clear to pilots exactly what that means. I
believe this whole facilitated my confusion in the first place.

Arden

Robert Henry wrote:

According to whom? I see several references to the "ATC facility having
jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area." Can there be more than one
facility with that authority?

Of course. If you want to get picky, I understand that all the
controlled airspace in the US is under the jurisdiction of the
ARTCCs, who cede it to various TRACONS and surface areas by LOA
(letters of agreement) which are regularly revised. More to the
point, every day various ATC facilities cede control of aircraft
which are actually within the airspace they control, to other
facilities for various reasons. This simply wouldn't work if
aviation law couldn't accept the concept of more than one facility
with authority over a particular airspace area, provided the
question of who has authority at the moment is properly coordinated.
That's why controllers spend a lot of time on the phone...

But in particular, the radar facility which provides approach
services to a surface area controlled by a VFR tower has to
count as having jurisdiction over that surface area in order
to separate aircraft within it. Just try and get a vector
out of a VFR tower, one with a BRITE....

Cheers,
Sydney

Flying VFR, there are no direction of flight restrictions below 3000 AGL, so
a climb to an altitude, 2600 AGL in most cases, allows you to avoid Class D.
If weather is a factor, circumnavigate the airspace or call the tower. For
the controller, simply advise of your intentions (climb, or leaving freq.).

In this case, I was crossing east-to-west, there was adverse weather
to the south, a restricted area to the north, and a low ceiling
preventing me from clearing this airspace above. In general, while it
might be possible for me to circumnavigate controlled airspaces in
order not to worry about additional regulations, I personally do not
want to get into this habit. Where it is safe, legal, and convenient
for me to fly through, I prefer to know and adhere to the applicable
regulations and navigate "as the crow flies". Just a personal
preference, I guess. Anyway, that's why I'm seeking clarification,
for the future.

thank-you
Arden

Arden Prinz wrote:

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count? Normally I
think Shaw Approach provides approach ATC functions for Mc Entire.

Yes, it counts.

Shaw approach is responsible to coordinate class D transitions if
you are receiving radar services from them when you enter class
D surface area.

This is clearly spelled out in the controller's regulations
(7110.65).

The only complication in your case is that they terminated
your radar services while you were in the Class D area, making
it hard to "maintain continuous communication". In that
case, I would call the tower before switching code, giving
location and intentions and saying something like "I had
radar services from Shaw, I assume they coordinated with you
before I entered".

Even facilities which normally don't coordinate (as they're
supposed to) won't generally get in a p***ing match on freq
with a pilot who politely makes it clear he knows how it's
supposed to work.

If it makes you feel better though, you can file an ASRS
describing the quandry you were placed in, maybe someone will
tweak some procedures at Shaw Approach.

Cheers,
Sydney