Riddle me this, pilots

"Chip Jones" wrote in
:

long story snipped...

Given this traffic scenario, would any of you guys have followed my
suggestion to turn to a 180 heading, or was I wasting my breath?

I think I would have turned in the direction you gave, since I couldn't see
the traffic & presumably you could, at least on radar. You have a much
bigger picture than I do. Either he misunderstood you or he's a lot more
arrogant than I like to think I am. If he knows he's faster than the
converging traffic, a turn away could work, but how could he know that?
OTOH, if you really, really want him to turn to a heading, give it as an
instruction, not a suggestion.

Turning the wrong way & losing that much altitude in the turn suggests a
lack of proficiency, but who knows?

--
Regards,

Stan

Either that or he wasn't really IMC, but didn't want to fess up (in which case
he probably stained his undies too). What the motivation for that would be, I
wouldn't know.

Stan Gosnell wrote:

Turning the wrong way & losing that much altitude in the turn suggests a
lack of proficiency, but who knows?

--
Regards,

Stan

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"Stan Gosnell" wrote in message
...
"Chip Jones" wrote in
:

long story snipped...

Given this traffic scenario, would any of you guys have followed my
suggestion to turn to a 180 heading, or was I wasting my breath?

I think I would have turned in the direction you gave, since I couldn't
see
the traffic & presumably you could, at least on radar. You have a much
bigger picture than I do. Either he misunderstood you or he's a lot more
arrogant than I like to think I am. If he knows he's faster than the
converging traffic, a turn away could work, but how could he know that?
OTOH, if you really, really want him to turn to a heading, give it as an
instruction, not a suggestion.


The only problem about issuing the 180 heading as an instruction instead of
a suggestion is that I do not have separation responsibility between an IFR
and a VFR in this class of airspace. Because of that, I have to follow the
7110.65's provisions regarding safety alerts and traffic alerts, and the
7110.65 requires me to make a suggestion instead of taking control with an
instruction in this case. In fact, the 7110.65 even instructs me to use the
phraseolgy "immediately" if I offer a suggested course of action. Hence, if
your best course of action was to hold your present heading, and I suggested
this to you, I would actually have to key up and say something as ridiculous
as "N123, traffic alert [insert appropriate information here], suggest you
fly your present heading immediately for traffic!" Silly, ain't it?

The logic is that during an alert, the FAA doesn't want ATC issuing
*instructions* to a controlled aircraft that might cause it to collide with
an uncontrolled aircraft. Say I instructed a 180 turn just as the unknown
VFR made a radical turn to the west to avoid ( know it's very very
unlikely). In such a collision, the ATC instruction would likely be
identified as the *cause* of the collision and as the controller I'd be hung
for not following the book. This was drilled into me a long long time ago
when as a young pup I assigned ATC vectors to a VFR aircraft in distress
(IFR pilot in VFR-only airplane stuck on top in winter clag looking for a
friendly airport). Eventually I vectored the pilot down into an airport
safely and then got reamed by facility management for not *suggesting* the
vectors instead of assigning them. My chewing for that event went something
like this- "Good job Chip. The pilot called to say thanks- he wants to buy
you a beer. HOWEVER, assign ATC headings contrary to the 7110 again, you
moron, and you will be decertified...you could have killed that guy."

Chip, ZTL




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"Chip Jones" wrote in
:

The only problem about issuing the 180 heading as an instruction
instead of a suggestion is that I do not have separation
responsibility between an IFR and a VFR in this class of airspace.
Because of that, I have to follow the 7110.65's provisions regarding
safety alerts and traffic alerts, and the 7110.65 requires me to make
a suggestion instead of taking control with an instruction in this
case. In fact, the 7110.65 even instructs me to use the phraseolgy
"immediately" if I offer a suggested course of action. Hence, if your
best course of action was to hold your present heading, and I
suggested this to you, I would actually have to key up and say
something as ridiculous as "N123, traffic alert [insert appropriate
information here], suggest you fly your present heading immediately
for traffic!" Silly, ain't it?

Any similarity between logic and government regulations is purely
coincidental and completely unintended. But if you ever see me heading for
another aircraft, please point me somewhere else, whatever phraseology you
can come up with that will satisfy 7110.65. If we have a midair, you'll be
down there blameless in the FAA's eyes, but I'll come back and haunt you.
;-)

--
Regards,

Stan

Stan Gosnell wrote in message ...

Any similarity between logic and government regulations is purely
coincidental and completely unintended. But if you ever see me heading for
another aircraft, please point me somewhere else, whatever phraseology you
can come up with that will satisfy 7110.65. If we have a midair, you'll be
down there blameless in the FAA's eyes, but I'll come back and haunt you.
;-)

Stan,

Doesn't this sound like a good title for a thriller?

"The Haunted Controller"

Best,
Sydney

In article ,
Snowbird wrote:
Doesn't this sound like a good title for a thriller?

"The Haunted Controller"

While I don't know of any that actually involve ghosts, the concept of
"Controller spends the rest of his life thinking about people who
died because of something he thinks he did/didn't do" has been done,
well, to death.

"Airport" had one, "Turbulance" had one, and I'm sure there are lots
more...

Tina Marie
--
Life is like an analogy. http://www.tripacerdriver.com