About those anti-aviatoin newsgroups

"Gary L. Drescher" wrote in message
news:NMn0b.199096$o%2.91497@sccrnsc02...
|
| I don't doubt that there may be one or two people on the face of the
planet
| with access to Usenet who have typed in such an idea (though your past
| misquotes of me and others have been so egregious that I can't just take
| your word for it). What I disputed is your claim that "numerous
activists"
| take that position--a position which is in fact eschewed by every
gay-rights
| organization I know of.
|

Well, I don't know about 'egregious,' but I do not intentionally misquote
you or anybody else. In view, however, of your tendency to contradict
yourself and to try to change the meaning of what you say, I can understand
how you might think that others are misquoting you.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
Well, I don't know about 'egregious,' but I do not intentionally misquote
you or anybody else.

I never said it was intentional or that you're lying. I think you
reflexively fabricate convenient facts, and then turn around and sincerely
believe your own fabrications. For instance, I'd bet you actually believe
your claim that there are many gay-rights groups that exclude straight
members and meet in public schools, despite your apparently having never
encountered even a single example.

--Gary

"Gary L. Drescher" wrote in message
news:_tr0b.199730$o%2.92520@sccrnsc02...
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
| ...
| Well, I don't know about 'egregious,' but I do not intentionally
misquote
| you or anybody else.
|
| I never said it was intentional or that you're lying. I think you
| reflexively fabricate convenient facts, and then turn around and sincerely
| believe your own fabrications. For instance, I'd bet you actually believe
| your claim that there are many gay-rights groups that exclude straight
| members and meet in public schools, despite your apparently having never
| encountered even a single example.
|
| --Gary


Broward County in Florida is debating right now whether to allow Boy Scouts
to continue to meet in their schools. "No matter what they decide, Till and
some board members said they do not plan to back off exactly what the Scouts
challenged in federal court this year: the district's insistence that some
groups meeting in schools not discriminate based on sexual orientation." I
see that as saying that it is OK for some groups to discriminate, but not
others. Perhaps you can ask Broward County if there really are other groups
that discriminate based on sexual orientation, and why it is tolerable for
them to do it but not the Boy Scouts.

The assault has the South Florida Council, Boy Scouts of America, fearing
for the very survival of its programs. "If you're not allowed to meet in
public schools, if you're not allowed to use city facilities, if you're not
allowed to raise money, it's kind of tough to have a program for children,"
said Jeffrie Herrmann, Scout executive.

You might want to ask some of your gay friends just how far they are willing
to go to destroy the Boy Scouts. If they are not allowed to meet in public
schools (as in South Florida) or in fire stations (as in Chicago), how long
will it be before they are not allowed to meet in recreation centers in
public parks? And from there, how long will it be that they will not be
allowed in the public parks at all?

"C J Campbell" wrote in message

Broward County in Florida is debating right now whether to allow Boy Scouts
to continue to meet in their schools.

Crikes around here we have Churches renting space in the schools on the weekend.
It's one of the most cost-effective venues for them. Local court decisions said that
if you're going to allow entities to rent the facility you can't discriminate against churches.

C J Campbell wrote:


You might want to ask some of your gay friends just how far they are willing
to go to destroy the Boy Scouts. If they are not allowed to meet in public
schools (as in South Florida) or in fire stations (as in Chicago), how long
will it be before they are not allowed to meet in recreation centers in
public parks? And from there, how long will it be that they will not be
allowed in the public parks at all?

As a straight woman and mother I don't have any problem with the BSA destroying
itself by having a policy that bans a group of children from becoming or staying
members. It's hard enough for a kid to come to grips with being gay, but then
to be thrown out of a social group where he has been a member for years because
of it is awful. I don't think any group should be allowed to harm children in
this way. When a kid is 7 they usually don't think much about sexual
orientation, but that same cute little cub scout at 13 or 15 might know full
well he is gay. Now, should he lie, hide who he is, or get thrown out of a
group he's belonged to for 8 years. Tough choice for a kid! BTW my daughter
was a girl scout, but I didn't look into boy scouts for my son because I was not
comfortable having my son surrounded by a group of bigots.

Margy

"Margy Natalie" wrote in message
...
|
|
| C J Campbell wrote:
|
|
| You might want to ask some of your gay friends just how far they are
willing
| to go to destroy the Boy Scouts. If they are not allowed to meet in
public
| schools (as in South Florida) or in fire stations (as in Chicago), how
long
| will it be before they are not allowed to meet in recreation centers in
| public parks? And from there, how long will it be that they will not be
| allowed in the public parks at all?
|
| As a straight woman and mother I don't have any problem with the BSA
destroying
| itself by having a policy that bans a group of children from becoming or
staying
| members. It's hard enough for a kid to come to grips with being gay, but
then
| to be thrown out of a social group where he has been a member for years
because
| of it is awful. I don't think any group should be allowed to harm
children in
| this way. When a kid is 7 they usually don't think much about sexual
| orientation, but that same cute little cub scout at 13 or 15 might know
full
| well he is gay. Now, should he lie, hide who he is, or get thrown out of
a
| group he's belonged to for 8 years. Tough choice for a kid! BTW my
daughter
| was a girl scout, but I didn't look into boy scouts for my son because I
was not
| comfortable having my son surrounded by a group of bigots.
|

The BSA does not throw out kids who are homosexuals. The policy applies to
adult leaders only.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
The BSA does not throw out kids who are homosexuals. The policy applies to
adult leaders only.

That's just false, CJ. The BSA does not have a policy of waiting until a
boy scout reaches majority age before expelling him for being openly gay.
Can you cite any statement of Scout policy (or any other evidence) to
support your claim?

In Dale v. BSA, the Scouts argued that the exclusion of gay members is
fundamental to their organizational purpose. In support of that argument,
the BSA took the position that their requirement of being "morally straight"
is inherently incompatible with being openly gay (or atheist). The
requirement to be "morally straight" applies to all Scouts, not just adult
leaders; so if "moral straightness" is construed to preclude being openly
gay, then gay children too are thereby deemed unfit for Scouting.

In an earlier thread here, at least one adult Scout leader acknowledged that
he would not refrain, merely because a scout is still a child, from
expelling that scout for being openly gay. He did say that his personal
inclination would be to try to find loopholes in the policy so as to avoid
or delay the child's expulsion. But one could look for loopholes with
regard to adult leaders, too, if one were personally so inclined--that
doesn't change what the policy is.

Keep in mind, too, that the BSA insists that its exclusion of people who are
openly gay is *required policy* for individual troops. It may be that many
troops covertly defy this policy, but those who do so openly are subject to
decertification. Just this month, a troop in Sebastopol, California lost
its BSA charter because the troop had an official nondiscrimination policy
with regard to sexual orientation and belief about religion.

Here is an anecdote ( http://www.inclusivescouting.net/bsa/cases/hill/ )
about Matt Hill, a 14-year-old scout in North Carolina expelled in December,
2000 for being gay after he helped found a gay-straight alliance at his high
school. "I have tried to join [another] unit at a pretty liberal minded
Presbyterian church but the leader for the troop said that because of the
BSA policy they couldn't do it. They did not want to lose their charter with
the BSA."

--Gary

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Gary L. Drescher" wrote in message
news:_tr0b.199730$o%2.92520@sccrnsc02...
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
| ...
| Well, I don't know about 'egregious,' but I do not intentionally
misquote
| you or anybody else.
|
| I never said it was intentional or that you're lying. I think you
| reflexively fabricate convenient facts, and then turn around and
sincerely
| believe your own fabrications. For instance, I'd bet you actually
believe
| your claim that there are many gay-rights groups that exclude straight
| members and meet in public schools, despite your apparently having never
| encountered even a single example.
|
| --Gary


Broward County in Florida is debating right now whether to allow Boy
Scouts
to continue to meet in their schools. "No matter what they decide, Till
and
some board members said they do not plan to back off exactly what the
Scouts
challenged in federal court this year: the district's insistence that some
groups meeting in schools not discriminate based on sexual orientation." I
see that as saying that it is OK for some groups to discriminate, but not
others. Perhaps you can ask Broward County if there really are other
groups
that discriminate based on sexual orientation, and why it is tolerable for
them to do it but not the Boy Scouts.

CJ, this illustrates why it is a good thing to cite sources for your claims.
Now that you have done so, it is apparent that you have simply
*misunderstood* what you read. In fact, you got it exactly backwards. Look
again please. What Till is quoted as saying is that the board will NOT BACK
OFF FROM INSISTING that groups meeting in schools must NOT discriminate
based on sexual orientation. The phrase "some groups" obviously refers to
the fact that *only some* school-meeting groups (namely, the Scouts) have
ever even *tried* to discriminate based on sexual orientation; it is not a
declaration that it would be OK for some other groups to so discriminate!
And *even given* your tortured misreading, the statement *still* would not
remotely attest to the actual existence of any gay-rights group that did
discriminate in that manner.

So *that* was your basis for claiming that many gay-rights groups meet in
public schools and exclude straight members?

--Gary