About those anti-aviatoin newsgroups

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
Well, I don't know about 'egregious,' but I do not intentionally misquote
you or anybody else.

I never said it was intentional or that you're lying. I think you
reflexively fabricate convenient facts, and then turn around and sincerely
believe your own fabrications. For instance, I'd bet you actually believe
your claim that there are many gay-rights groups that exclude straight
members and meet in public schools, despite your apparently having never
encountered even a single example.

--Gary

"Gary L. Drescher" wrote in message
news:_tr0b.199730$o%2.92520@sccrnsc02...
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
| ...
| Well, I don't know about 'egregious,' but I do not intentionally
misquote
| you or anybody else.
|
| I never said it was intentional or that you're lying. I think you
| reflexively fabricate convenient facts, and then turn around and sincerely
| believe your own fabrications. For instance, I'd bet you actually believe
| your claim that there are many gay-rights groups that exclude straight
| members and meet in public schools, despite your apparently having never
| encountered even a single example.
|
| --Gary


Broward County in Florida is debating right now whether to allow Boy Scouts
to continue to meet in their schools. "No matter what they decide, Till and
some board members said they do not plan to back off exactly what the Scouts
challenged in federal court this year: the district's insistence that some
groups meeting in schools not discriminate based on sexual orientation." I
see that as saying that it is OK for some groups to discriminate, but not
others. Perhaps you can ask Broward County if there really are other groups
that discriminate based on sexual orientation, and why it is tolerable for
them to do it but not the Boy Scouts.

The assault has the South Florida Council, Boy Scouts of America, fearing
for the very survival of its programs. "If you're not allowed to meet in
public schools, if you're not allowed to use city facilities, if you're not
allowed to raise money, it's kind of tough to have a program for children,"
said Jeffrie Herrmann, Scout executive.

You might want to ask some of your gay friends just how far they are willing
to go to destroy the Boy Scouts. If they are not allowed to meet in public
schools (as in South Florida) or in fire stations (as in Chicago), how long
will it be before they are not allowed to meet in recreation centers in
public parks? And from there, how long will it be that they will not be
allowed in the public parks at all?

"C J Campbell" wrote in message

Broward County in Florida is debating right now whether to allow Boy Scouts
to continue to meet in their schools.

Crikes around here we have Churches renting space in the schools on the weekend.
It's one of the most cost-effective venues for them. Local court decisions said that
if you're going to allow entities to rent the facility you can't discriminate against churches.

C J Campbell wrote:


You might want to ask some of your gay friends just how far they are willing
to go to destroy the Boy Scouts. If they are not allowed to meet in public
schools (as in South Florida) or in fire stations (as in Chicago), how long
will it be before they are not allowed to meet in recreation centers in
public parks? And from there, how long will it be that they will not be
allowed in the public parks at all?

As a straight woman and mother I don't have any problem with the BSA destroying
itself by having a policy that bans a group of children from becoming or staying
members. It's hard enough for a kid to come to grips with being gay, but then
to be thrown out of a social group where he has been a member for years because
of it is awful. I don't think any group should be allowed to harm children in
this way. When a kid is 7 they usually don't think much about sexual
orientation, but that same cute little cub scout at 13 or 15 might know full
well he is gay. Now, should he lie, hide who he is, or get thrown out of a
group he's belonged to for 8 years. Tough choice for a kid! BTW my daughter
was a girl scout, but I didn't look into boy scouts for my son because I was not
comfortable having my son surrounded by a group of bigots.

Margy

"Margy Natalie" wrote in message
...
|
|
| C J Campbell wrote:
|
|
| You might want to ask some of your gay friends just how far they are
willing
| to go to destroy the Boy Scouts. If they are not allowed to meet in
public
| schools (as in South Florida) or in fire stations (as in Chicago), how
long
| will it be before they are not allowed to meet in recreation centers in
| public parks? And from there, how long will it be that they will not be
| allowed in the public parks at all?
|
| As a straight woman and mother I don't have any problem with the BSA
destroying
| itself by having a policy that bans a group of children from becoming or
staying
| members. It's hard enough for a kid to come to grips with being gay, but
then
| to be thrown out of a social group where he has been a member for years
because
| of it is awful. I don't think any group should be allowed to harm
children in
| this way. When a kid is 7 they usually don't think much about sexual
| orientation, but that same cute little cub scout at 13 or 15 might know
full
| well he is gay. Now, should he lie, hide who he is, or get thrown out of
a
| group he's belonged to for 8 years. Tough choice for a kid! BTW my
daughter
| was a girl scout, but I didn't look into boy scouts for my son because I
was not
| comfortable having my son surrounded by a group of bigots.
|

The BSA does not throw out kids who are homosexuals. The policy applies to
adult leaders only.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
The BSA does not throw out kids who are homosexuals. The policy applies to
adult leaders only.

That's just false, CJ. The BSA does not have a policy of waiting until a
boy scout reaches majority age before expelling him for being openly gay.
Can you cite any statement of Scout policy (or any other evidence) to
support your claim?

In Dale v. BSA, the Scouts argued that the exclusion of gay members is
fundamental to their organizational purpose. In support of that argument,
the BSA took the position that their requirement of being "morally straight"
is inherently incompatible with being openly gay (or atheist). The
requirement to be "morally straight" applies to all Scouts, not just adult
leaders; so if "moral straightness" is construed to preclude being openly
gay, then gay children too are thereby deemed unfit for Scouting.

In an earlier thread here, at least one adult Scout leader acknowledged that
he would not refrain, merely because a scout is still a child, from
expelling that scout for being openly gay. He did say that his personal
inclination would be to try to find loopholes in the policy so as to avoid
or delay the child's expulsion. But one could look for loopholes with
regard to adult leaders, too, if one were personally so inclined--that
doesn't change what the policy is.

Keep in mind, too, that the BSA insists that its exclusion of people who are
openly gay is *required policy* for individual troops. It may be that many
troops covertly defy this policy, but those who do so openly are subject to
decertification. Just this month, a troop in Sebastopol, California lost
its BSA charter because the troop had an official nondiscrimination policy
with regard to sexual orientation and belief about religion.

Here is an anecdote ( http://www.inclusivescouting.net/bsa/cases/hill/ )
about Matt Hill, a 14-year-old scout in North Carolina expelled in December,
2000 for being gay after he helped found a gay-straight alliance at his high
school. "I have tried to join [another] unit at a pretty liberal minded
Presbyterian church but the leader for the troop said that because of the
BSA policy they couldn't do it. They did not want to lose their charter with
the BSA."

--Gary

"Gary L. Drescher" wrote in message
news:VQJ0b.206533$o%2.95221@sccrnsc02...
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
| ...
| The BSA does not throw out kids who are homosexuals. The policy applies
to
| adult leaders only.
|
| That's just false, CJ. The BSA does not have a policy of waiting until a
| boy scout reaches majority age before expelling him for being openly gay.
| Can you cite any statement of Scout policy (or any other evidence) to
| support your claim?
|

The Broward County case that I cited earlier acknowledged that the problem
was discrimination against adult leaders, not youth. There is no written
policy from the National Council telling people to not accept gay youth in
their units.

Units that expel gay youths (especially 14 year olds, who can hardly be
expected to know whether they are gay or not), do so in error.

OTOH, there are those who are expelled for being disruptive who later claim
that they were expelled for being gay. Your anecdote gives only Matt Hill's
account, which is likely to be distorted to say the least. You might
remember that the people reporting on the Boy Scouts and their admission
policies are the same ones that believe that airplanes crash because they
did not file a flight plan. The news media are highly selective in their
reporting, including only those 'facts' that support their particular
agendas.

The Boy Scouts do not discriminate against youth and anybody who does is
doing so against national policy.

This is from BSA's own web site:

FICTION


The Boy Scouts of America sued to have members and leaders who are avowed
homosexuals kicked out of the organization.
FACT


The Boy Scouts of America is a private organization that has the right to
set its own standards for membership and leadership. We have only defended
ourselves in court when others have chosen to attack our standards by taking
the BSA to court.

The Boy Scouts of America makes no effort to discover the sexual
orientation of any member or leader. Scouting's message is compromised when
members or leaders present themselves as role models whose actions are
inconsistent with the standards set in the Scout Oath and Law.

Rarely, if ever, has a boy expressed opposition to any of the values of
the Scout Oath and Law. In the event that were to happen, we would encourage
the boy to seek counsel from his parents or religious leaders to make sure
that his expression was the product of a mature decision.

Scouting's record of inclusion is impressive by any standard.

We respect other people's rights to hold opinions different than ours and
ask that they respect ours.
The Boy Scouts have also published the following position paper on
diversity. There is nothing in these papers requiring the expulsion of youth
who are gay. In fact, BSA policy is that youth are incapable of knowing
whether they are really gay or not. Those who insist on turning every
meeting into some kind of gay rights political forum, though, are likely to
be asked to leave. We have a program to run, and it is not fair to the other
boys to have that program usurped by a single issue simply because some
member or leader decides that is not only the most important thing in the
world, it is the only thing in the world:

More than 90 years ago, the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) was founded on the
premise of teaching boys moral and ethical values through an outdoor program
that challenges them and teaches them respect for nature, one another, and
themselves. Scouting has always represented the best in community,
leadership, and service.

The Boy Scouts of America has selected its leaders using the highest
standards because strong leaders and positive role models are so important
to the healthy development of youth. Today, the organization still stands
firm that their leaders exemplify the values outlined in the Scout Oath and
Law.

On June 28, 2000, the United States Supreme Court reaffirmed the Boy Scouts
of America's standing as a private organization with the right to set its
own membership and leadership standards.

The BSA respects the rights of people and groups who hold values that differ
from those encompassed in the Scout Oath and Law, and the BSA makes no
effort to deny the rights of those whose views differ to hold their
attitudes or opinions.

Scouts come from all walks of life and are exposed to diversity in Scouting
that they may not otherwise experience. The Boy Scouts of America aims to
allow youth to live and learn as children and enjoy Scouting without
immersing them in the politics of the day.

We hope that our supporters will continue to value the Boy Scouts of
America's respect for diversity and the positive impact Scouting has on
young people's lives. We realize that not every individual nor organization
prescribes to the same beliefs that the BSA does, but we hope that all
Americans can be as respectful of our beliefs as we are of theirs and
support the overall good Scouting does in American communities.



The Boy Scouts' policy on school access is similar:

For more than 90 years, the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) has complemented
youth education with a program that teaches boys skills and values that will
help them throughout their lifetimes.

Scouting has become an American institution, a natural element in most
communities. Scouts exemplify the values outlined in the Scout Oath and Law
and dedicate themselves to serving their communities.

On June 28, 2000, the United States Supreme Court reaffirmed the Boy Scouts
of America's standing as a private organization with the right to set its
own membership and leadership standards.

The BSA respects the rights of people and groups who hold values that differ
from those encompassed in the Scout Oath and Laws, and the BSA makes no
effort to deny the rights of those whose views differ to hold their
attitudes or opinions.

The Boy Scouts of America aims to allow youth to live and to learn as
children and enjoy Scouting without immersing them in the politics of the
day. However, people dissatisfied with the Boy Scouts of America's
membership policies and the moral views on which they are based have
suggested that the BSA not have the privilege of meeting in public schools
or distributing recruitment information at public schools.

Just as other student or community groups are permitted to have access to
public school facilities, the Boy Scouts of America aims to have the same
access.



The Boy Scouts also suggests these points should be made whenever there is
any discussion of our values.

a.. The U.S. Supreme Court recently reaffirmed the right of the Boy Scouts
of America to freedom of association. They made the right choice.


b.. Those who disagree with the Scouts are free to do so, but all
Americans living in our free society should respect the rights of a private
group to establish guidelines for what they believe is best for their
membership and leaders.


c.. Scouting aims to immerse America's youth in character-building
experiences without subjecting them to the politics of the day. No youth
organization or club should ever be used as a vehicle for promoting a
political or social agenda. Childhood is too important.


d.. A key tenet of the Scouting program is respect; respect for different
ideas, customs, and cultures as well as the recognition of the right of
individuals to subscribe to other beliefs. Respect for others, however,
doesn't mean the forced inclusion of people whose values, ethics, or morals
are contrary to your own.


e.. In a time of eroding morality, I applaud Scouting's resolve to remain
a beacon of values and ideals. Our children are in desperate need of
meaningful experiences, values, and character-building lessons that are
critical to a happy and successful life.


f.. Our children are forced to deal with very difficult issues and
problems every day: violent television and video games, teen pregnancy,
increased childhood obesity, juvenile crime, to name a few. I suggest that
we focus on the roots of these problems instead of attacking a group such as
Scouting that tries to solve them.


g.. The Boy Scouts of America symbolizes what is right with our country,
an organization whose Oath reads: On my honor I will do my best to do my
duty to God and my country. Thankfully, these youth will continue to have
the right to join a group that promotes faith-based values, instead of one
that condemns them.


h.. I appreciate the Boy Scouts' unwavering commitment to helping develop
the future leaders of this country. We need more groups, not fewer, which
understand that America's youth will always be the cornerstone of a
successful and responsible society.


i.. Scouts come from all walks of life and experience diversity in
Scouting that they often cannot see elsewhere in their lives. Scouting helps
children from cities, suburbs, and rural areas, and from all faiths and
races regardless of economic status. Parents look to Scouting to support
their efforts to raise their children, reinforcing the values taught in the
home, school, and church.

BSA has no real choice in the matter, either. If BSA is forced to abandon
its values then the organizations (mostly churches) that sponsor most of the
units will bolt. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the
Catholics, and the Methodists have made this quite clear. Funding will dry
up completely and membership will be reduced by as much as two thirds. BSA
regards homosexuality as a spiritual matter and aims to support the
spiritual values of its chartered organizations. BSA's policy statements
were not authored by committees from these organizations, either. They were
authored by a committee of National Board members headed by Steve Fossett.

No doubt you will still insist on misrepresenting what I say, the nature of
the Boy Scouts' position and policies on values, and what is really going on
in a full-scale assault to destroy a fine youth organization. Fine. Be
dishonest if you must. But don't expect me or anybody else to swallow the
tripe you have been pushing in this thread. Your arguments and the arguments
of others posting here boil down to advocacy of using the armed might of the
federal government to suppress an organization that you have a political
disagreement with. Because that is really what it is: you want the Boy
Scouts to change their values, by force or the threat of force if necessary.
And you have the unmitigated gall to suggest that you somehow support
diversity.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Gary L. Drescher" wrote in message
news:VQJ0b.206533$o%2.95221@sccrnsc02...
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
| ...
| The BSA does not throw out kids who are homosexuals. The policy
applies
to
| adult leaders only.
|
| That's just false, CJ. The BSA does not have a policy of waiting until
a
| boy scout reaches majority age before expelling him for being openly
gay.
| Can you cite any statement of Scout policy (or any other evidence) to
| support your claim?
|

There is no written
policy from the National Council telling people to not accept gay youth in
their units.

CJ, the very BSA statement you quoted says the following, specifically in
reference to gays in the Scouts:

Scouting's message is compromised when
members or leaders present themselves as role models whose actions are
inconsistent with the standards set in the Scout Oath and Law.

Note the phrase "members OR leaders". No restriction to adults. And the
BSA resolution adopted on Feb 6, 2002 by the National Executive Board of the
Boy Scouts says explicitly that merely being openly gay (an "avowed
homosexual", as they put it) was inherently inconsistent with the standards
of the Scout Oath and Law, as BSA interprets it.

Nothing elsewhere in what you quoted says otherwise (if you disagree, please
cite the specific relevant passage). Yes, it says they don't investigate
sexual orientation (don't-ask-don't-tell). Yes, it says they'll give a
child a chance to reconsider if he comes out as being gay (they'd encourage
the boy to "seek counsel" to verify that he'd made a "mature decision"),
before holding him responsible. But nowhere does it back off from the
position that an openly gay child (unless he recants) is to be expelled.

The Boy Scouts do not discriminate against youth and anybody who does is
doing so against national policy.

Units that expel gay youths (especially 14 year olds, who can hardly be
expected to know whether they are gay or not), do so in error.

That's not what the national policy says, and it's not what the adult Scout
leaders who've spoken up on this newsgroup feel bound by. If the national
policy is being as widely misinterpreted as you seem to think, why do you
suppose the BSA hasn't made the clear statement that you just did? All they
have to say is "No youth should be expelled from the Scouts just for being
openly gay." Why don't you propose such a statement to them, and see what
they say? Ask them if a Scout troop would be lose its charter for refusing
to expel openly gay children who don't recant, and see what they say.

--Gary

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Gary L. Drescher" wrote in message
news:_tr0b.199730$o%2.92520@sccrnsc02...
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
| ...
| Well, I don't know about 'egregious,' but I do not intentionally
misquote
| you or anybody else.
|
| I never said it was intentional or that you're lying. I think you
| reflexively fabricate convenient facts, and then turn around and
sincerely
| believe your own fabrications. For instance, I'd bet you actually
believe
| your claim that there are many gay-rights groups that exclude straight
| members and meet in public schools, despite your apparently having never
| encountered even a single example.
|
| --Gary


Broward County in Florida is debating right now whether to allow Boy
Scouts
to continue to meet in their schools. "No matter what they decide, Till
and
some board members said they do not plan to back off exactly what the
Scouts
challenged in federal court this year: the district's insistence that some
groups meeting in schools not discriminate based on sexual orientation." I
see that as saying that it is OK for some groups to discriminate, but not
others. Perhaps you can ask Broward County if there really are other
groups
that discriminate based on sexual orientation, and why it is tolerable for
them to do it but not the Boy Scouts.

CJ, this illustrates why it is a good thing to cite sources for your claims.
Now that you have done so, it is apparent that you have simply
*misunderstood* what you read. In fact, you got it exactly backwards. Look
again please. What Till is quoted as saying is that the board will NOT BACK
OFF FROM INSISTING that groups meeting in schools must NOT discriminate
based on sexual orientation. The phrase "some groups" obviously refers to
the fact that *only some* school-meeting groups (namely, the Scouts) have
ever even *tried* to discriminate based on sexual orientation; it is not a
declaration that it would be OK for some other groups to so discriminate!
And *even given* your tortured misreading, the statement *still* would not
remotely attest to the actual existence of any gay-rights group that did
discriminate in that manner.

So *that* was your basis for claiming that many gay-rights groups meet in
public schools and exclude straight members?

--Gary