Rogue IFR

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

That doesn't mean ATC can rely on them to KNOW something.


Of course it does. If a pilot says he's in the clouds ATC knows he's in
IMC.



Besides, even a PIREP does not imply IFR conditions in the exact spot the
target is flying. The PIREP is valid for a specific point in space at a
specific point in time. Assuming there was no collision, obviously the
target aircraft was not in that specific point in space at that specific
point in time.


The airplanes don't have to be at exactly the same point. If a pilot
reports he's in the clouds then any other aircraft within 2000 feet
horizontally, 1000 feet above, or 500 feet below of the reporting aircraft
is in IMC.



It's pretty funny, actually, the way you can't help yourself and insist on
arguing even when someone is supporting the point you're trying to make.
Thanks for the good laugh...


I was responding only to the part of your message that was incorrect.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
That doesn't mean ATC can rely on them to KNOW something.

Of course it does. If a pilot says he's in the clouds ATC knows he's in
IMC.

Sorry. I thought the "...about the VFR target" was implied obviously enough
for you to pick up on it. Apparently not. I'll try to keep things simpler
for you in the future, so you can keep up.

The airplanes don't have to be at exactly the same point. If a pilot
reports he's in the clouds then any other aircraft within 2000 feet
horizontally, 1000 feet above, or 500 feet below of the reporting aircraft
is in IMC.

ATC doesn't have enroute radar capable of determining when another aircraft
is within those limits. Furthermore, that assumes accurate reporting by the
VFR target's transponder. Again, an unidentified target would not qualify
for that assumption.

I was responding only to the part of your message that was incorrect.

There was no such part.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

ATC doesn't have enroute radar capable of determining when another
aircraft is within those limits.


Enroute radar? Do you mean Air Route Surveillance Radar? Why are we
suddenly limited to ARSR for discussion purposes? Please, Pete, tell us
about the capabilities of ATC radar.



Furthermore, that assumes accurate reporting by the VFR target's
transponder. Again, an unidentified target would not qualify for
that assumption.


It assumes nothing at all. If a pilot reports he's in the clouds, then any
other
aircraft that is within 2000 feet horizontally, 1000 feet above, or 500 feet
below
the reporting aircraft MUST be in IMC.



There was no such part.


Yes there was. You said ATC can't rely on PIREPs to KNOW something. That's
obviously incorrect.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
It assumes nothing at all. If a pilot reports he's in the clouds, then
any
other aircraft that is within 2000 feet horizontally, 1000 feet above, or
500 feet below the reporting aircraft MUST be in IMC.

ATC has no way of knowing that the VFR target in question is within those
limits.

Yes there was. You said ATC can't rely on PIREPs to KNOW something.
That's
obviously incorrect.

Wow. With the "...about the VFR target" implied, your misunderstanding was
understandable, if a bit surprising. But with it being called out
explicitly to you, your ignorance is downright shocking.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

ATC has no way of knowing that the VFR target in question is within those
limits.


Irrelevant.



Wow. With the "...about the VFR target" implied, your misunderstanding
was
understandable, if a bit surprising. But with it being called out
explicitly to you, your ignorance is downright shocking.


There was no "...about the VFR target" implied.

Where's your dissertation on ATC radar capabilities?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
ATC has no way of knowing that the VFR target in question is within
those
limits.

Irrelevant.

You wish it was. Unfortunately for you, it's exactly the point.

There was no "...about the VFR target" implied.

You presume to tell me what is or is not implied by my own post?

Where's your dissertation on ATC radar capabilities?

What dissertation?

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

You presume to tell me what is or is not implied by my own post?


Yup.



What dissertation?


The one in which you explain the capabilities of ATC radar.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

It assumes nothing at all. If a pilot reports he's in the
clouds, then any other
aircraft that is within 2000 feet horizontally, 1000 feet above,
or 500 feet below
the reporting aircraft MUST be in IMC.

ATC's definition may be different, but I found these defined on
the web.


From FAR Part 1
IFR conditions means weather conditions below the minimum for
flight under visual flight rules.

This seems to be the definition that you are using for IMC.



From http://www.visi.com/~lindowdy/aviation/glossary.htm
Glossary of Aviation Terms
IMC instrument meteorlogical conditions; unable to see visual
references outside the plane

This seems to be the definition that most mortal pilots use.

Bob Moore

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
...
ATC's definition may be different, but I found these defined on
the web.


From FAR Part 1
IFR conditions means weather conditions below the minimum for
flight under visual flight rules.

This seems to be the definition that you are using for IMC.



From http://www.visi.com/~lindowdy/aviation/glossary.htm
Glossary of Aviation Terms
IMC instrument meteorlogical conditions; unable to see visual
references outside the plane

This seems to be the definition that most mortal pilots use.

So is that "IN CLOULDS" only considered IMC, or is ON TOP considered IMC?

I don't think this is right. In Class B airspace, the only requirement is to be
clear of clounds. That means that an aircraft could be in the clouds at (for
example) 5,000 ft. and other aircraft could be VFR at 4,500 or 5,500, be clear
of the clouds and be quite legal.

Dave Reinhart


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

ATC doesn't have enroute radar capable of determining when another
aircraft is within those limits.


Enroute radar? Do you mean Air Route Surveillance Radar? Why are we
suddenly limited to ARSR for discussion purposes? Please, Pete, tell us
about the capabilities of ATC radar.


Furthermore, that assumes accurate reporting by the VFR target's
transponder. Again, an unidentified target would not qualify for
that assumption.


It assumes nothing at all. If a pilot reports he's in the clouds, then any
other
aircraft that is within 2000 feet horizontally, 1000 feet above, or 500 feet
below
the reporting aircraft MUST be in IMC.


There was no such part.


Yes there was. You said ATC can't rely on PIREPs to KNOW something. That's
obviously incorrect.