Help me clear up my brain fart

I'll bet you had a young, relatively low time instructor.

Slips for landing are common and safe. I use them all the time. Well, not
all the time, but I like to come in high and slip away excess altitude. That
way, I always have the field made no matter what the engine decides to do.

Keep the ball centered in cruise and in turns, unless you're slipping in a
turn. A lot of times I throw in a little top rudder in the base to final
turn to bleed off excess altitude. You don't want to skid in a turn, but
when slipping the tendency when you get slow is for the high wing to drop,
thus bringing you automatically into a wings level attitude. If you're
skidding, the bottom wing can drop out and you can end up upside down in a
hurry. Not fun at 1000' agl. Just watch your speed, don't get too slow and
you'll be fine. And of course the ball will be out of the box when you're
slipping.

And unless you're flying a B52 or an Ercoupe, you'll have to slip with the
ball out of the center to land in a crosswind unless you feel like folding
up your landing gear. Remember, a good laning is any one you can walk away
from. A great landing means you get to use the plane again.

20 degrees of bank is pretty conservative. You'd have to use airliner
patterns with that shallow a turn, which will put you way out of gliding
range to the runway. Not safe at all. As long as you keep your turns
coordinated, maostly being careful not to skid (ball towards the high wing)
30 degrees is common. I often go 45 degrees in the pattern, but I fly the
same plane all the time (mine) and it's more forgiving in the stall than
most.

JMHO, and worth what ou paid for it.

mike regish


"Ekim" wrote in message
om...
"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

These are things that were hammered in my head by my numerous CFIs
during pattern training as a student pilot. Now that I have my PPL,
you would think I should have this understood. Unfortunately, now this
is really twisted up in my head.

Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly
spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? It seems to all
contradict everything about slips on final and the famous
"low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings?

In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep
the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a
steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe.
Right?

Thanks,
Ekim

I used to keep my pattern turns to 15 degrees and could fly tight, make the
airfield if the engine quits, patterns with no problem. Not all planes will
do this but a 172 and a 152 will. Now that I have more experience, I go up
to 25 but keep to 20 most of the time.

Everything else you wrote, I agree with.

A good rule for the original poster to drill in his head:

If you overshoot the turn to final, take your eyes off the runway, look at
the instruments, nail the 20 degree bank angle, keep the ball centered, and
stabilize the airspeed at the proper number for the plane. Just hold that
until you are almost on the extension line and then turn on to final.
You'll be amazed in most cases how much room there is left to the threshold.
Focusing on the aircraft attitude instead of being late in the turn will
help avoid getting slow and when you overshoot.

If you did make your turn too close, getting back on centerline will get you
set up for a proper go around.

--
Roger Long

mike regish wrote in message
20 degrees of bank is pretty conservative. You'd have to use airliner
patterns with that shallow a turn, which will put you way out of gliding
range to the runway. Not safe at all.

In article ,
"Roger Long" om
wrote:

A good rule for the original poster to drill in his head:

If you overshoot the turn to final, take your eyes off the runway, look at
the instruments, nail the 20 degree bank angle, keep the ball centered, and
stabilize the airspeed at the proper number for the plane. Just hold that
until you are almost on the extension line and then turn on to final.
You'll be amazed in most cases how much room there is left to the threshold.
Focusing on the aircraft attitude instead of being late in the turn will
help avoid getting slow and when you overshoot.

While I agree with your intent that you shouldn't tighten the turn
trying to lineup, you should be able to fly a safe, coordinated turn
without "take your eyes off the runway, look at the instruments". On
the base to final turn is not the time to have your head in the cockpit.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

On
the base to final turn is not the time to have your head in the cockpit.

Sure it is, if you are a low time student pilot trying to salvage an
overshot turn before you have developed a good feel for the plane. Use the
instruments to get your configuration and attitude right, then get your eyes
back outside. You should always be dividing your attention between inside
and outside.

What happens to low hours, and even high hours pilots when they are
stressed, is fixating on the view outside the plane and pushing the plane
into a stall spin trying to turn too tightly back to the runway centerline.
A short period of using the instruments to be sure airspeed, ball, and bank
are not out of safe limits isn't going to significantly increase the chances
of a midair. The final approach should have been cleared before the turn.
By the time an overshoot becomes an issue, the most probable midair will be
someone hitting you from behind and nobody is looking back there anyway.

Pilots, especially students, should be checking airspeed, etc. all through
the pattern. What I'm really saying is that just after you realize that
you've overshot is an important time to do this again. Don't depart from
the airspeed / bank parameters you've established for the pattern in order
to salvage a botched turn. Just stick with the program and you'll probably
find there is still plenty of time to make the runway. If not, a go around
is always a good thing to practice.

--
Roger Long

"Roger Long" om wrote in
message ...
[...] You should always be dividing your attention between inside
and outside.

IMHO, not even close. Not for VFR flight.

The airplane is perfectly flyable without ANY reference to the instruments,
or anything inside the airplane. Turning base to final is no time to be
wasting ANY effort looking at instruments, and is certainly no time to be
attempting to use the instruments as feedback for control inputs.

A pilot who cannot judge bank angle and coordination without consulting the
turn coordinator and attitude indicator is one who needs to get back to the
basics.

What happens to low hours, and even high hours pilots when they are
stressed, is fixating on the view outside the plane and pushing the plane
into a stall spin trying to turn too tightly back to the runway
centerline.

They only do that if they fail to keep the airplane coordinated. One does
not need to consult the instrument panel in order to keep the airplane
coordinated.

[...] Pilots, especially students, should be checking airspeed, etc. all
through
the pattern.

Again, not necessary at all. It's all well and good to keep an eye on
things, of course. But any pilot should be able to go extended periods of
time in the pattern without looking at the ASI or any other instrument.
Airspeed in particular should be second-nature. Pitch and power will result
in the desired airspeed, and a pilot familiar with the airplane knows what
pitch and power to set in the pattern. Additionally, aircraft noise and
control feel gives you reasonably good information about airspeed (within
five knots or so).

I check my airspeed indicator maybe a couple of times before turning final,
and then maybe two or three more times while flying final, assuming
everything else is going fine. It's certainly not a significant part of my
visual scan. The vast majority of my visual scan is devoted to looking
outside the airplane.

Pete

You've been flying a long, long time and I'm sure you've forgotten a lot
about being low hours

I think we're talking about learning here, getting TO the basics; not
getting back to them. How do you learn to fly using only the windshield and
the seat of your pants except by looking at the instruments? How can you
learn the proper feel of 75 knots unless you know it is 75 knots?

Sure, a better way of teaching flying would be to cover up the instruments
and have the CFI go, "A little faster, you're skidding a bit, less
bank....". But, they don't do that. They teach you a little bit and then
send you up there on your own.

Like most pilots, I look at the instruments less and less in the pattern as
I gain experience. I look at airspeed and RPM a lot in pattern work to be
sure I'm remaining consistent. A lot means a quick glance at midfield,
base, and final. If you don't check, what feels like 75 knots could easily
drift up or down. Like you, I hardly look below the glareshield on most
regular landings unless I haven't flown in a while.

It's different when too when you fly a lot. Many pilots can only fly 2 - 3
times a month. It's easy to argue that they should leave the air to pros
like yourself but GA wouldn't exist as we know it if they did. There is
also the issue of flying different aircraft. One 172 will feel and sound
very different at a certain speed than another. The low time pilot who
forgets to adjust his seat may not allow for a different sight picture.
Flying a 152 one day and a 172 a few days later as often happens in some
training situations can get the student who ignores the panel in trouble.

Telling students and low frequency fliers that they should not include the
instruments in their scan is actually dangerous advice.

--
Roger Long


The airplane is perfectly flyable without ANY reference to the
instruments,
or anything inside the airplane. Turning base to final is no time to be
wasting ANY effort looking at instruments, and is certainly no time to be
attempting to use the instruments as feedback for control inputs.

A pilot who cannot judge bank angle and coordination without consulting
the
turn coordinator and attitude indicator is one who needs to get back to
the
basics.

"Roger Long" wrote

How do you learn to fly using only the windshield and the seat
of your pants......

Real easy, it's called attitude flying.

Sure, a better way of teaching flying would be to cover up the
instruments and have the CFI go, "A little faster,

No...I said "lower the nose a little...now fix that picture in
your mind".


They teach you a little bit and then send you up there on your
own.

No student of mine solo'ed without one whole period in the pattern
with the entire instrument panel covered.
It's called "flying the airplane", not "video gamming".

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

"Roger Long" om wrote in
message ...
You've been flying a long, long time and I'm sure you've forgotten a lot
about being low hours
[...]
Telling students and low frequency fliers that they should not include the
instruments in their scan is actually dangerous advice.

When I was a student, with relatively few hours, during my night training,
we flew approaches without any interior lights at all, to simulate an
electrical failure. Even at that point, I was able to fly the airplane
without reference to the ASI, turn coordinator, and attitude indicator.

I don't feel that I was an unusually talented student. I had all the same
hurdles to cross as any student, with all the usual learning plateaus.
IMHO, if a private pilot cannot fly the airplane without reference to the
instruments, it is not because they are inherently not able to. It's
because no instructor ever bothered to give them appropriate training.

Pete

In article ,
Peter Duniho wrote:
A pilot who cannot judge bank angle and coordination without consulting the
turn coordinator and attitude indicator is one who needs to get back to the
basics.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never been able to judge turn
coordination without the use of the ball (bank angle, I'm "ok" on). If
I don't look at the ball, I have no idea if I'm coordinated or not.
My instructor tried very hard to get me to judge coordination "naturally",
but I just never got it. How do you teach something like that?

--Ken

"Ken Hornstein" wrote in message
...
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never been able to judge turn
coordination without the use of the ball (bank angle, I'm "ok" on). If
I don't look at the ball, I have no idea if I'm coordinated or not.
My instructor tried very hard to get me to judge coordination "naturally",
but I just never got it. How do you teach something like that?

I will bet that you can at least judge coordination well enough to avoid
serious problems.

Keeping the ball smack in the middle is a lot harder than making sure the
airplane isn't skidding dangerously. In fact, I suspect most people who
claim that they need the turn coordinator are simply underestimating the
sensitivity of that instrument. You can keep your flying pretty good and
still have the ball slip out of center a little bit.

Pete