Help me clear up my brain fart

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:12:37 +0000 (UTC), (Ken
Hornstein) wrote:

In article ,
Peter Duniho wrote:
A pilot who cannot judge bank angle and coordination without consulting the
turn coordinator and attitude indicator is one who needs to get back to the
basics.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never been able to judge turn
coordination without the use of the ball (bank angle, I'm "ok" on). If
I don't look at the ball, I have no idea if I'm coordinated or not.
My instructor tried very hard to get me to judge coordination "naturally",
but I just never got it. How do you teach something like that?

--Ken
If you look straight ahead when you initiate your turn, you can use
your sight over the nose as your "turn and bank" indicator.

Assume you are turning to the right. Here are the three possible
looks you'll see if you 1. don't apply enough rudder. 2. Apply too
much. 3. Apply the right amount.

1. With not enough rudder to counteract differential yaw, you'll see
the nose skid to the left as you bank to the right.

2. With too much rudder, you'll see the nose slip to the right as or
before you bank.

3. With the correct amount of rudder, the nose stays planted straight
ahead as you bank. Once you achieve the sought after bank angle, the
airplane begins turning.

That's right out of the King ground school video and verifiable in
flight. It does work.

Corky Scott

Ken Hornstein wrote:


I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never been able to judge turn
coordination without the use of the ball (bank angle, I'm "ok" on). If
I don't look at the ball, I have no idea if I'm coordinated or not.
My instructor tried very hard to get me to judge coordination "naturally",
but I just never got it. How do you teach something like that?

I couldn't either for a while, but now I never have to look inside the
plane to land. How many hours do you have?

"Peter Duniho" wrote

"Roger Long" wrote in
[...] You should always be dividing your attention between
inside and outside.

IMHO, not even close. Not for VFR flight.

I'll second that!!! Not even close.

Bob Moore

"Peter Duniho" writes:

"Roger Long" om wrote in
message ...
[...] You should always be dividing your attention between inside
and outside.

IMHO, not even close. Not for VFR flight.

Have to agree with this.

Look: with an instructor, cover up the airspeed indicator, the gyros,
all that crap. Try flying around the pattern a couple of times. Get
used to it. There, not so bad, eh? You don't really need that stuff.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Roger Long" om wrote in
message ...
[...] You should always be dividing your attention between inside
and outside.

IMHO, not even close. Not for VFR flight.

The airplane is perfectly flyable without ANY reference to the instruments,
or anything inside the airplane. Turning base to final is no time to be
wasting ANY effort looking at instruments, and is certainly no time to be
attempting to use the instruments as feedback for control inputs.

snip lots of good stuff

I'll make that another "me too" post. You want to learn how to fly without
instruments? Get a lesson in a Cub, or another tandem seat airplane you fly
from the back. Most have only an airspeed, tach and altimeter, and with an
instructor in front, all you can see is a little bit of the tach.

You learn to fly by feel, by noting what the engine sounds like and where your
throttle is at a certian RPM, and what the pitch attitude looks like in all
regimes of flight. And for the pilot who didn't know what "uncoordinated" felt
like, swinging back and forth in the tail will show 'ya. If not, open the door
and windows. If the wind isn't hitting your face, you're coordinated.

FWIW, I learned to fly in Skyhawks and Archers. Then I towed banners for a few
seasons in Cubs and PA-12's. One of our planes had an airspeed indicator out of
an Aztec (ever see a Cub with a blue line?) For most of our pattern and towing,
the airspeed just wasn't sensative enough, and would sit on the peg. After
about the second day, you didn't even miss it. My second season, I went and
flew a "new" PA-12. I picked up two banners before I even looked at the
airspeed indicator, because you learn what it "feels" like.

--
Mike

Roger Long wrote:

Sure it is, if you are a low time student pilot trying to salvage an
overshot turn before you have developed a good feel for the plane.

Hi Roger,

Just "my opinion". but salvage and student in the same sentence is a bad
choice of words.

If the low time student overshot the turn to the point where the word
salvage comes into play, I would suggest just going around and trying
again.....

Allen
(who is not a CFI).

Guilty as charged of poor word choice. The key point is that an overshot
turn, in most cases, doesn't have to even be salvaged. Just hold normal
pattern turn attitude and you'll come back to centerline in time to get down
on most runways used by anything larger than trainers. Holding attitude
instead of trying to increase the turn with bank and or rudder is the core
message. Even if you are going around, you want to get back to the
centerline in case someone is flying a real tight downwind. Holding that 20
degree bank until you get there will make it easier to look for them.

I got us off on instrument use which is really a separate discussion that
applies to all pattern flying; not just an overshot turn. If I were a CFI
and my student got into that position, I would sure want to think he would
take a quick check at the gauges to be sure he hadn't strayed too far out of
the envelope instead of thinking he wasn't supposed to do that and trying to
feel his way out.

Learning to rely less on the instruments, attitude flying, and all that is
an important part of training and an objective for proficiency. However,
"Don't look at the panel!", is not a dogma that should be handed out to
blindly apply to all landing situations. Learning to fly without reference
to the instruments is something the student should be initially doing with a
CFI in the right seat. Most students will be overshooting a number of final
turns before they are ready to judge RPM, airspeed, and coordination
without instruments.

Being able to get a plane landed with out looking at the instruments is one
thing. Flying a precise pattern, landing in the minimum distance, at the
lowest touchdown speed is another. Most pilots are not going to be able to
maintain the level of proficiency where they can do those things safely
without a glance at the panel at certain points in the pattern. Flying like
it was flight simulator is a different issue which should be addressed.

Pilots should practice patterns without looking at gauges. They should also
do patterns with gauge checks to be sure that they really are flying the
flight profile they are practicing.

A sad but true thing is that the kind of training most students are going to
get will require that they use the instruments as checks while they teach
themselves how to fly the pattern properly. Having CFI's who teach attitude
flying properly telling them in a forum like this that looking at the panel
is a bad thing is, in my view, a bad thing.

--
Roger Long

A Lieberman wrote in message
...
Roger Long wrote:

Sure it is, if you are a low time student pilot trying to salvage an
overshot turn before you have developed a good feel for the plane.

Hi Roger,

Just "my opinion". but salvage and student in the same sentence is a bad
choice of words.

If the low time student overshot the turn to the point where the word
salvage comes into play, I would suggest just going around and trying
again.....

Allen
(who is not a CFI).

Here's a bet for you: I bet that a metric ****load more GA pilots have crashed
due to NOT looking at the instruments (like in IMC) than have crashed due to
(over)reliance on instruments.

It's a great exercise to do a landing with the ASI, etc. out once in a while
whether a student or experienced pilot just to know that it can be done in the
event of an instrument failure. But I will tell you that when one is faced with
it, either real or simulated, it is a grave mistake to fly any sort pattern
other than an unhurried one with gentle turns. There is no good reason to
compound one problem (e.g. ASI inop) with another (steep
turn/uncoordinated/sudden pitch changes/etc.). Most accidents, including
training accidents, are caused by a series of events and bad decisions - not
just one. You know, my old C-150 was real easy to land without looking at the
ASI. It had a low stall speed, lots of warning before a stall, and a wide band
of approach speeds that would work. But my Musketeer, while easier in general to
fly and land, has a high(er) stall speed, little warning before a stall, and a
narrow band of approach speeds that will work. Can I land without an ASI? Damn
skippy I can, but I'm going to take advantage of everything in my toolbox if it
comes to it. I'll try to go to an airport with a long runway, make shallow
turns, use full flaps, keep the ball centered, and I'm not going to practice it
either. It's just not worth it.

Stepping up on an even higher soap box now: I get absolutly worn out with the
guys who want to tell everybody that they aren't a good/safe/real pilot if they
aren't completely minimalist and avoid use of any new-fangled inventions. Like
the slip/skid ball. Oh please! "Boy, you just ain't a real pilot if you can't
fly a tail dragger". Fine. I don't want to be a "real" pilot then. Tricycle gear
is easier and safer. Ask your insurance man if you want proof. Good enough for
me. "Back in my day, we had to learn to spin them aeroplanes. You just ain't no
kinda pilot if you don't do it and like it.". Well why is it now that spin
avoidance rather than spin training is taught that the occurance of stall/spin
accidents is lower? And so forth. If you want to fly a plane with no dials, then
go right ahead. Just stop telling everybody that you are superior to those of us
who divide their time properly to looking at the panel and out the window.

Off my soap box now.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson, CFI and old guy
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24 Musketeer Super III

Roger Long wrote:

Guilty as charged of poor word choice. The key point is that an overshot
turn, in most cases, doesn't have to even be salvaged. Just hold normal
pattern turn attitude and you'll come back to centerline in time to get down
on most runways used by anything larger than trainers. Holding attitude
instead of trying to increase the turn with bank and or rudder is the core
message. Even if you are going around, you want to get back to the
centerline in case someone is flying a real tight downwind. Holding that 20
degree bank until you get there will make it easier to look for them.

I got us off on instrument use which is really a separate discussion that
applies to all pattern flying; not just an overshot turn. If I were a CFI
and my student got into that position, I would sure want to think he would
take a quick check at the gauges to be sure he hadn't strayed too far out of
the envelope instead of thinking he wasn't supposed to do that and trying to
feel his way out.

Learning to rely less on the instruments, attitude flying, and all that is
an important part of training and an objective for proficiency. However,
"Don't look at the panel!", is not a dogma that should be handed out to
blindly apply to all landing situations. Learning to fly without reference
to the instruments is something the student should be initially doing with a
CFI in the right seat. Most students will be overshooting a number of final
turns before they are ready to judge RPM, airspeed, and coordination
without instruments.

Being able to get a plane landed with out looking at the instruments is one
thing. Flying a precise pattern, landing in the minimum distance, at the
lowest touchdown speed is another. Most pilots are not going to be able to
maintain the level of proficiency where they can do those things safely
without a glance at the panel at certain points in the pattern. Flying like
it was flight simulator is a different issue which should be addressed.

Pilots should practice patterns without looking at gauges. They should also
do patterns with gauge checks to be sure that they really are flying the
flight profile they are practicing.

A sad but true thing is that the kind of training most students are going to
get will require that they use the instruments as checks while they teach
themselves how to fly the pattern properly. Having CFI's who teach attitude
flying properly telling them in a forum like this that looking at the panel
is a bad thing is, in my view, a bad thing.

--
Roger Long

A Lieberman wrote in message
...
Roger Long wrote:

Sure it is, if you are a low time student pilot trying to salvage an
overshot turn before you have developed a good feel for the plane.

Hi Roger,

Just "my opinion". but salvage and student in the same sentence is a bad
choice of words.

If the low time student overshot the turn to the point where the word
salvage comes into play, I would suggest just going around and trying
again.....

Allen
(who is not a CFI).

Roger

EKM listed what he was told as a student. Those figures are of course
very conservative but used to get an individual up and flying in a
safe manner. As one get more time in the air and more experience, he
can adjust them quite a bit and still survive.

All in all I agree with what you said so put me on the plus side :O)

Tail wind on base.
Overshooting final.
Slow in final turn or on final are things to be avoided or you under
stand how to handle them.

Slip, airspeed and G's are all interrelated to safe flying especially
in the pattern.

Big John


On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:43:27 GMT, "Roger Long"
om wrote:

I used to keep my pattern turns to 15 degrees and could fly tight, make the
airfield if the engine quits, patterns with no problem. Not all planes will
do this but a 172 and a 152 will. Now that I have more experience, I go up
to 25 but keep to 20 most of the time.

Everything else you wrote, I agree with.

A good rule for the original poster to drill in his head:

If you overshoot the turn to final, take your eyes off the runway, look at
the instruments, nail the 20 degree bank angle, keep the ball centered, and
stabilize the airspeed at the proper number for the plane. Just hold that
until you are almost on the extension line and then turn on to final.
You'll be amazed in most cases how much room there is left to the threshold.
Focusing on the aircraft attitude instead of being late in the turn will
help avoid getting slow and when you overshoot.

If you did make your turn too close, getting back on centerline will get you
set up for a proper go around.