Help me clear up my brain fart

"Ekim" wrote in message
om...
In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep
the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a
steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe.
Right?

Right.

In fact, the admonition to never go beyond some arbitrarily low bank angle
while in the pattern is thought to be one of the common ways that
low-altitude stall/spin accidents happen. Pilot thinks steep bank angles
are bad, is overshooting final, tries to compensate without a steep bank
angle by using rudder to get the nose around, then stalls in the skidding
turn.

It's obviously much better if you can always fly a nice, easy pattern. But
when things don't go perfectly, the right thing to do is *fly the airplane*,
doing what's necessary to acheive your goals safely. Coordinated flight is
safe. Slips are safe. If the turn needs to be steeper in order to keep the
plane coordinated, so be it. If you need to slip to correct for extra
altitude on final, go right ahead.

There may well be situations in which the more prudent decision is to go
around and try again. You are expected to identify those situations and
take appropriate action when necessary. But there's nothing inherently
wrong with a steep turn or a slip that automatically requires such an
action.

Pete

"Roger Long" om wrote in
message ...
[...] You should always be dividing your attention between inside
and outside.

IMHO, not even close. Not for VFR flight.

The airplane is perfectly flyable without ANY reference to the instruments,
or anything inside the airplane. Turning base to final is no time to be
wasting ANY effort looking at instruments, and is certainly no time to be
attempting to use the instruments as feedback for control inputs.

A pilot who cannot judge bank angle and coordination without consulting the
turn coordinator and attitude indicator is one who needs to get back to the
basics.

What happens to low hours, and even high hours pilots when they are
stressed, is fixating on the view outside the plane and pushing the plane
into a stall spin trying to turn too tightly back to the runway
centerline.

They only do that if they fail to keep the airplane coordinated. One does
not need to consult the instrument panel in order to keep the airplane
coordinated.

[...] Pilots, especially students, should be checking airspeed, etc. all
through
the pattern.

Again, not necessary at all. It's all well and good to keep an eye on
things, of course. But any pilot should be able to go extended periods of
time in the pattern without looking at the ASI or any other instrument.
Airspeed in particular should be second-nature. Pitch and power will result
in the desired airspeed, and a pilot familiar with the airplane knows what
pitch and power to set in the pattern. Additionally, aircraft noise and
control feel gives you reasonably good information about airspeed (within
five knots or so).

I check my airspeed indicator maybe a couple of times before turning final,
and then maybe two or three more times while flying final, assuming
everything else is going fine. It's certainly not a significant part of my
visual scan. The vast majority of my visual scan is devoted to looking
outside the airplane.

Pete

(Ekim) wrote in message . com...
"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

At my school we were told "not more than 30 degrees of bank in the
pattern". I personally heard from my instructors to keep the ball
centered unless you were slipping. We did practice slipping, it was
regarded as something you needed to know and show you could do it, but
not normal procedure.

I also heard a lot of "more right rudder", but that was just me...

-Malcolm

You've been flying a long, long time and I'm sure you've forgotten a lot
about being low hours

I think we're talking about learning here, getting TO the basics; not
getting back to them. How do you learn to fly using only the windshield and
the seat of your pants except by looking at the instruments? How can you
learn the proper feel of 75 knots unless you know it is 75 knots?

Sure, a better way of teaching flying would be to cover up the instruments
and have the CFI go, "A little faster, you're skidding a bit, less
bank....". But, they don't do that. They teach you a little bit and then
send you up there on your own.

Like most pilots, I look at the instruments less and less in the pattern as
I gain experience. I look at airspeed and RPM a lot in pattern work to be
sure I'm remaining consistent. A lot means a quick glance at midfield,
base, and final. If you don't check, what feels like 75 knots could easily
drift up or down. Like you, I hardly look below the glareshield on most
regular landings unless I haven't flown in a while.

It's different when too when you fly a lot. Many pilots can only fly 2 - 3
times a month. It's easy to argue that they should leave the air to pros
like yourself but GA wouldn't exist as we know it if they did. There is
also the issue of flying different aircraft. One 172 will feel and sound
very different at a certain speed than another. The low time pilot who
forgets to adjust his seat may not allow for a different sight picture.
Flying a 152 one day and a 172 a few days later as often happens in some
training situations can get the student who ignores the panel in trouble.

Telling students and low frequency fliers that they should not include the
instruments in their scan is actually dangerous advice.

--
Roger Long


The airplane is perfectly flyable without ANY reference to the
instruments,
or anything inside the airplane. Turning base to final is no time to be
wasting ANY effort looking at instruments, and is certainly no time to be
attempting to use the instruments as feedback for control inputs.

A pilot who cannot judge bank angle and coordination without consulting
the
turn coordinator and attitude indicator is one who needs to get back to
the
basics.

In article ,
Peter Duniho wrote:
A pilot who cannot judge bank angle and coordination without consulting the
turn coordinator and attitude indicator is one who needs to get back to the
basics.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never been able to judge turn
coordination without the use of the ball (bank angle, I'm "ok" on). If
I don't look at the ball, I have no idea if I'm coordinated or not.
My instructor tried very hard to get me to judge coordination "naturally",
but I just never got it. How do you teach something like that?

--Ken

"Malcolm Teas" wrote in message om...

At my school we were told "not more than 30 degrees of bank in the
pattern". I personally heard from my instructors to keep the ball
centered unless you were slipping.

All good advice.

We did practice slipping, it was
regarded as something you needed to know and show you could do it, but
not normal procedure.

It's essential to crosswind landings.

I also heard a lot of "more right rudder", but that was just me...

Standard flight instructor mantra.

Mike made a good point about the difference in stall characteristics
between a slip and a skid. Based on my reading and from really
thinking about the aerodynamics of both, a slip is more spin
'resistant' than a skid for several reasons. Notice I said resistant
and not proof. Probably the most important reason is that in a slip
the roll and yaw component have been decoupled. In other words the
direction of roll and yaw are opposite. This is one reason why the
wings return to level first in a stall from a slip. If you think
about what each control input is doing to the AOA on each wing in a
slip it should become clear that the high wing stall first. In a
skid, the opposite is true and both roll and yaw are in the same
direction, which is a bad thing. In a skid the lower wing stalls
first and as Mike said, you'll probably find yourself inverted
quickly.

Another benefit of a slip is that a large area of the elevator is
blanked by the vertical stabilizer because the relative wind is
coming more from the side. Therefore, because airflow is blocked over
a portion of the elevator, there may not be enough elevator authority
to stall the plane. The third point is that with the relative wind
coming from the side, the fuselage is also acting as a lifting
surface, just not an effective one. A few good books to read on the
subject would be Emergency Maneuver Training by Stowell, Stalls,
Spins, and Safety by Sammy Mason, and Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators
to name a few.

Dave
(Ekim) wrote in message . com...
"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

These are things that were hammered in my head by my numerous CFIs
during pattern training as a student pilot. Now that I have my PPL,
you would think I should have this understood. Unfortunately, now this
is really twisted up in my head.

Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly
spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? It seems to all
contradict everything about slips on final and the famous
"low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings?

In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep
the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a
steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe.
Right?

Thanks,
Ekim

"Peter Duniho" wrote

"Roger Long" wrote in
[...] You should always be dividing your attention between
inside and outside.

IMHO, not even close. Not for VFR flight.

I'll second that!!! Not even close.

Bob Moore

"Roger Long" wrote

How do you learn to fly using only the windshield and the seat
of your pants......

Real easy, it's called attitude flying.

Sure, a better way of teaching flying would be to cover up the
instruments and have the CFI go, "A little faster,

No...I said "lower the nose a little...now fix that picture in
your mind".


They teach you a little bit and then send you up there on your
own.

No student of mine solo'ed without one whole period in the pattern
with the entire instrument panel covered.
It's called "flying the airplane", not "video gamming".

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:12:37 +0000 (UTC), (Ken
Hornstein) wrote:

In article ,
Peter Duniho wrote:
A pilot who cannot judge bank angle and coordination without consulting the
turn coordinator and attitude indicator is one who needs to get back to the
basics.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never been able to judge turn
coordination without the use of the ball (bank angle, I'm "ok" on). If
I don't look at the ball, I have no idea if I'm coordinated or not.
My instructor tried very hard to get me to judge coordination "naturally",
but I just never got it. How do you teach something like that?

--Ken
If you look straight ahead when you initiate your turn, you can use
your sight over the nose as your "turn and bank" indicator.

Assume you are turning to the right. Here are the three possible
looks you'll see if you 1. don't apply enough rudder. 2. Apply too
much. 3. Apply the right amount.

1. With not enough rudder to counteract differential yaw, you'll see
the nose skid to the left as you bank to the right.

2. With too much rudder, you'll see the nose slip to the right as or
before you bank.

3. With the correct amount of rudder, the nose stays planted straight
ahead as you bank. Once you achieve the sought after bank angle, the
airplane begins turning.

That's right out of the King ground school video and verifiable in
flight. It does work.

Corky Scott