Help me clear up my brain fart

In article ,
Corky Scott wrote:
If you look straight ahead when you initiate your turn, you can use
your sight over the nose as your "turn and bank" indicator.

Assume you are turning to the right. Here are the three possible
looks you'll see if you 1. don't apply enough rudder. 2. Apply too
much. 3. Apply the right amount.
[...]

Okay, I learned that during the coordination exercises; that I got, but
only because it's got an obvious sight picture. But that only helps
during the roll-in and roll-out of the turn, right? In other flight
regimes (e.g., climb-out), I don't seem to have the kinesthetic sense
indicating coordination. Maybe I do, and I'm just not recognizing it,
but that doesn't help me :-/

--Ken

You'll feel like you're sliding across the seat one way or the other. Or
like you're going around a curve in a car instead of just being pushed
straight down in the seat.

mike regish

"Ken Hornstein" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Peter Duniho wrote:
"Ken Hornstein" wrote in message
...
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never been able to judge turn
coordination without the use of the ball (bank angle, I'm "ok" on). If
I don't look at the ball, I have no idea if I'm coordinated or not.
My instructor tried very hard to get me to judge coordination
"naturally",
but I just never got it. How do you teach something like that?

I will bet that you can at least judge coordination well enough to avoid
serious problems.

Well, shoot .... how do I tell? I mean, I have _no_ sense of
coordination.
If you were to put me in a skid, I have no idea how that feels. During
climbout, I always have to cross-check with the ball to make sure I'm
coordinated; I can never do that on feel. I'm better with that now, but
that's because I know the right amount of control pressure to use on
the rudder, not because I know what coordinated flight feels like.
During slips, the only thing that tells me I'm in a slip is the ball.

--Ken

Good article in one of my mags (Plane and pilot maybe?) about seat of the
pants flying. It's called that for a reason. Cause the butt knows.

Listen to your butt, grasshopper.

mike regish

"Ken Hornstein" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Corky Scott wrote:
If you look straight ahead when you initiate your turn, you can use
your sight over the nose as your "turn and bank" indicator.

Assume you are turning to the right. Here are the three possible
looks you'll see if you 1. don't apply enough rudder. 2. Apply too
much. 3. Apply the right amount.
[...]

Okay, I learned that during the coordination exercises; that I got, but
only because it's got an obvious sight picture. But that only helps
during the roll-in and roll-out of the turn, right? In other flight
regimes (e.g., climb-out), I don't seem to have the kinesthetic sense
indicating coordination. Maybe I do, and I'm just not recognizing it,
but that doesn't help me :-/

--Ken

"Malcolm Teas" wrote in message
om...
(Ekim) wrote in message
. com...
"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

At my school we were told "not more than 30 degrees of bank in the
pattern". I personally heard from my instructors to keep the ball
centered unless you were slipping.


We did practice slipping, it was
regarded as something you needed to know and show you could do it, but
not normal procedure.

How, pray tell, do you land in a cross wind? I think I am starting to
understand why watching people land in a cross wind is so entertaining but
hell on the airframe. Slips are one of the most usefull tools you can
develop. It's a shame you have missed that important part of your training.

I also heard a lot of "more right rudder", but that was just me...

-Malcolm

(Ekim) wrote in message . com...
"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

Never slip unless it is an emergency landing? That's a great time to
be learning how your plane handles in a slip!

I wouldn't want to try to fly into a short strip, or Oshkosh during
the fly-in, or in a plane without flaps following those rules.

They are conservative rules that were designed to keep you out of
trouble, and force you to fly a standard, predictable and coordinated
pattern while learning (a good idea). But your plane is capable of
much more, and with practice you can be too.

-Bruce B

"Roger Long" om wrote in
message ...
But look what you turned into. You are obviously an ubermench.

I appreciate the compliment, but I don't see what it has to do with the
question at hand.

In article rxdsb.127082$9E1.626279@attbi_s52,
mike regish wrote:
Good article in one of my mags (Plane and pilot maybe?) about seat of the
pants flying. It's called that for a reason. Cause the butt knows.

Listen to your butt, grasshopper.

I tried ... my butt's stupid, I guess. Unfortunately, I always run into
problems like this ... common explanations are "you should feel it in
your butt/seat of the pants/take your pick". Well, I _don't_. No one
can really explain to me what I'm supposed to feel. I suspect there are
a bunch of cues that contribute to this feeling, and I'm just not
putting them all together. Other than flying a lot, I'm not sure how
I'm supposed to train for this.

--Ken

"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

If you never use a slip until it's an emergency.. you may not do it right
when you need to..

Slip to landing is part of the Glider Practical Test Standard..

BT

"Ken Hornstein" wrote in message
...
I tried ... my butt's stupid, I guess. Unfortunately, I always run into
problems like this ... common explanations are "you should feel it in
your butt/seat of the pants/take your pick".

IMHO, statements like that are too vague to be really helpful. This is a
common problem with instructors. They only have one way to say something,
and it's often not an informative way. They have a terrible time adjusting
to different students.

Well, I _don't_. No one
can really explain to me what I'm supposed to feel. I suspect there are
a bunch of cues that contribute to this feeling, and I'm just not
putting them all together. Other than flying a lot, I'm not sure how
I'm supposed to train for this.

Start with the extreme cases and work back from that. Get an instructor to
help.

Mike's comments have been the most helpful so far, IMHO. In a car, if you
turn a corner quickly, I assume you'd be able to tell with your eyes closed
whether the turn was a right turn or a left, correct? The reason is that
your body is pushed to one side of the car or the other by centrifugal force
(ignore anyone who replies to this telling you or me that there is no such
thing ). If your body tries to slide to the right, it's a left turn and
vice a versa. This corresponds to a skid in an airplane.

Likewise, if the car is traveling across a slope (rather than up or down
one), it will be tilted ("banked"). You'd be able to tell which direction
the car is tilted by the direction your body is being pushed. If your body
tries to slide to the right, the car is tilted to the right (it's lower on
the right side) and vice a versa. This corresponds to a slip in an
airplane.

The rudder is used to negate any such "body sliding". If your body is
sliding to the left, you need more left rudder (or less right rudder). If
your body is sliding to the right, you need more right rudder (or less left
rudder).

Now, to demonstrate this in an airplane, fly a level slip. That is, in
level flight bank to one direction or the other and use the rudder to hold
the heading constant. You'll find your body trying to slide toward the
downhill side of the airplane. This is your "butt" telling you that you are
in uncoordinated flight. You might need a pretty decent bank angle for you
to notice this, but any airplane ought to be able to slip with a large
enough angle that you can feel what we're talking about.

You can also do the same exercise with the skid. In level flight, yaw the
aircraft with the rudder while keeping the wings level with the aileron.
Use a lot of rudder input. Again, your body will try to slide, only this
time it will be toward the outside of the yaw or turn. And again, this is
your "butt" telling you that you are in uncoordinated flight.

Especially for the skidding case (but also for the slipping case), you'll
want to make sure you keep your speed up so that you don't stall. Va is
probably a good target. You'll need extra power to keep the speed up as
drag increases during the uncoordinated flight. One reason for bringing an
instructor along is to ensure that you go through the demonstrations safely,
and another reason is to make sure that you actually get a nice, clear
demonstration (by yourself, you might be too hesitant to get enough control
input in for you to really notice what's going on).

I simply don't believe that you are incapable of distinguishing coordinated
and uncoordinated flight without the use of the turn coordinator. For minor
deviations, the difference is subtle, to be sure. But with the proper
demonstration, I think you will be well on your way to easy, coordinated
flight without worrying about the instrument.

I'll also reiterate that even if you don't immediately learn to distinguish
small deviations, you certainly ought to be able to distinguish deviations
large enough to be a safety issue. I suspect you already can, and just
don't know it because no one ever showed you that you can.

Pete

(Ekim) writes:

"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

I understand. It took me a long time to get rid of that kind of stuff
too.

If you can, get some instruction and time in a J-3 Cub. It slips
beautifully and will cure you of worries about cross-controlling, etc.
There's no flying experience like slipping a Cub to landing on a grass
strip on a warm summer evening, the strong Delta breeze offering a
hint of a cool, pleasant night. In the distance, I can easily see the
skyscrapers and Capitol Building of downtown, but as I turn onto final
my only thoughts are to avoid that big, damn oak tree right at the
base of the levee on the Sacramento River. That, and the power lines.
It's a game to see how close I

Oops. Got carried away in my little daydream. The Aircoupe I have
now has rudder pedals but doesn't slip for squat. But seriously, get
some Cub time and get those feet moving. Then get a spin endorsement
and you'll be a happy flyer.