Rogue IFR

Ron Natalie wrote:

That wasn't universally the case. Some of the ARSA's (this predates the lettered namespace)
were specifically using the "I can't hear you" approach in lieu of explicitly denying service.

Yep. Last time I tried to talk to them, Bristol, TN was one if these.

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"Greg Goodknight" wrote in message
ink.net...

More like between 30 minutes after sunset and 30 minutes before sunrise,
roughly, the rule of thumb for night ops in the continental US, not to
be
confused with the one hour after sundown rule for logging night flight
time.


No, it's between sunset and sunrise, except for Alaska.

(4) Except for helicopters, between sunrise and sunset (or in Alaska, when
the sun is 6 degrees or more below the horizon)

The 30 minutes after the sun is half obscured is the estimate for six
degrees in the continental US outside of Alaska. I believe that's the
working definition for sunrise and sunset mentioned here for Alaska and is
the ICAO definition repeated in the FAR or AIM (I forget which)

At the equator, with the Earth rotating 360 degrees in 24*60minutes, 6
degrees is 24 minutes.

It really is the time when there is no longer enough natural light to land
at an unlit airport, in good weather.

-Greg



§91.157 Special VFR weather minimums.

(a) Except as provided in appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR
operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of
this section, instead of those contained in §91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL
within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral
boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an
airport.

(b) Special VFR operations may only be conducted --

(1) With an ATC clearance;

(2) Clear of clouds;

(3) Except for helicopters, when flight visibility is at least 1 statute
mile; and

(4) Except for helicopters, between sunrise and sunset (or in Alaska,
when
the sun is 6 degrees or more below the horizon) unless --

(i) The person being granted the ATC clearance meets the applicable
requirements for instrument flight under part 61 of this chapter; and

(ii) The aircraft is equipped as required in §91.205(d).

(c) No person may take off or land an aircraft (other than a helicopter)
under special VFR --

(1) Unless ground visibility is at least 1 statute mile; or

(2) If ground visibility is not reported, unless flight visibility is at
least 1 statute mile. For the purposes of this paragraph, the term flight
visibility includes the visibility from the cockpit of an aircraft in
takeoff position if:

(i) The flight is conducted under this part 91; and

(ii) The airport at which the aircraft is located is a satellite
airport
that does not have weather reporting capabilities.

(d) The determination of visibility by a pilot in accordance with
paragraph
(c)(2) of this section is not an official weather report or an official
ground visibility report.

[Amdt. 91-235, 58 FR 51968, Oct. 5, 1993, as amended by Amdt. 91-247, 60
FR
66874, Dec. 27, 1995; Amdt. 91-262, 65 FR 16116, Mar. 24, 2000]

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
news:RYfnb.44209$HS4.185004@attbi_s01...
In article . net,
Greg Goodknight wrote:
instrument rating, so he can't get an SVFR clearance anyway.

That restriction applies only between sunset and sunrise.

More like between 30 minutes after sunset and 30 minutes before sunrise,
roughly, the rule of thumb for night ops in the continental US, not to be
confused with the one hour after sundown rule for logging night flight
time.

Err, 'night' in the FAR is defined in 14 CFR Part 1 and it's based on
civil twilight.

The SVFR regulations in 91.157(b)(4) says sunset-sunrise, not "night",
so the other poster was exactly right.

It's 61.57(b) (night currency) that uses the "hour after sunset".

The ICAO definition is when the center the sun is 6 degrees or more below
the horizon

Which is the definition of the end of civil twilight.

6 degrees, at the equator, is 24 minutes, do the math (remember, 360 degrees
in 24 hours) but that's at the equator. When Grass Valley (O17) had a night
closure a few years ago over a trees and obstruction light snafu, I pressed
the issue with the local FSDO; they came back with 30 minutes being the rule
of thumb they use in the 48 states.

-Greg



--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

"Greg Goodknight" wrote in message
news

It really is the time when there is no longer enough natural light to land
at an unlit airport, in good weather.


No, it really is sunset and sunrise. I posted the regulation, I suggest you
read it.

"Greg Goodknight" wrote in message
hlink.net...

6 degrees, at the equator, is 24 minutes, do the math (remember, 360
degrees in 24 hours) but that's at the equator.


No math required, read the regulation.



When Grass Valley (O17) had a night
closure a few years ago over a trees and obstruction light snafu,


SVFR is not available at O17.



I pressed the issue with the local FSDO; they came back with
30 minutes being the rule of thumb they use in the 48 states.



The US has fifty states.

It's not a "rule of thumb", it's a regulation. The regulation clearly
states that fixed-wing Special VFR operations may only be conducted between
sunrise and sunset (or in Alaska, when the sun is 6 degrees or more below
the horizon) unless the pilot and airplane are capable of IFR flight.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

What makes you say that?


Your response on 10/27:

"ATC doesn't have enroute radar capable of determining when another aircraft
is within those limits."

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
What makes you say that?

Your response on 10/27:

"ATC doesn't have enroute radar capable of determining when another
aircraft
is within those limits."

What about that statement makes you think that I don't think a controller
would be familiar with ATC's radar capabilities?

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

What about that statement makes you think that I don't think a controller
would be familiar with ATC's radar capabilities?


It was a response to someone you knew to be a radar controller.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...
It was a response to someone you knew to be a radar controller.

That fact that I don't understand why YOU appear to not be familiar with
ATC's radar capabilities in no way reflects on my opinion regarding
controller's in general. I'm sure most controllers are much better informed
than you appear to be.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

That fact that I don't understand why YOU appear to not be familiar with
ATC's radar capabilities in no way reflects on my opinion regarding
controller's in general. I'm sure most controllers are much better
informed
than you appear to be.


How do YOU know I'm not familiar with ATC's radar capabilities? What makes
YOU think most controllers are much better informed than I am?