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#1
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"Robert Perkins" wrote in message
Fights and wars have broken out over things other than religion, and no society goes to war for that reason alone. It's too much work! I don't know. If a modern (albeit minor) war could be waged over a soccer match, I'm thinking that religion would be a far more serious matter in societies of centuries ago. -- John T http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer __________ |
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Robert Perkins wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:54:32 GMT, "Lenny Toulson" wrote: Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but religion? People have died in wars based on nothing but human avarice, with religion as the dressing to break down a person's natural inclination not to kill for the first time. If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them. - Andrew |
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:56:55 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote: If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them. How? Marxist Communism was supposed to be free of religion. Hundreds of millions died or were oppressed anyway. Doesn't seem to me that there's much of a difference between a secular tyranny and one based on a religion (unless you're willing to come along with me and call atheism a religion). Rob -- [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to educate themselves. -- Orson Scott Card |
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Andrew Gideon wrote:
Robert Perkins wrote: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:54:32 GMT, "Lenny Toulson" wrote: Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but religion? People have died in wars based on nothing but human avarice, with religion as the dressing to break down a person's natural inclination not to kill for the first time. If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them. That's more or less what Richard Dawkins said just after Sept 11/01: http://www.ffrf.org/tm.php?tm=dawkins.html Brilliant guy. Thanks to whoever posted the FfRF URL earlier in this thread! Brian. |
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:05:52 -0800, Brian Burger
wrote: If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them. That's more or less what Richard Dawkins said just after Sept 11/01: http://www.ffrf.org/tm.php?tm=dawkins.html It's nonsense, that is, fallacy in the form of the Genuine but Insignificant Cause. If it were true, then people espousing atheist belief systems would consistently behave much better than they've proven to have behaved. In harping on "religion", he misses that point, and so I don't care what his letters and credentials are, he's demagoguing. Rob -- [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to educate themselves. -- Orson Scott Card |
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"Robert Perkins" wrote in message
http://www.ffrf.org/tm.php?tm=dawkins.html It's nonsense, that is, fallacy in the form of the Genuine but Insignificant Cause. If it were true, then people espousing atheist belief systems would consistently behave much better than they've proven to have behaved. Nope. That isn't a conclusion of the preceding material. And, where did you get that reference from? mo rd |
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On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 03:26:14 -0500, "Happy Dog"
wrote: "Robert Perkins" wrote in message http://www.ffrf.org/tm.php?tm=dawkins.html It's nonsense, that is, fallacy in the form of the Genuine but Insignificant Cause. If it were true, then people espousing atheist belief systems would consistently behave much better than they've proven to have behaved. Nope. That isn't a conclusion of the preceding material. And, where did you get that reference from? The reference came from two posts up. As for your rejoinder, Dawkins wrote: "The human psyche has two great sicknesses: the urge to carry vendetta across generations, and the tendency to fasten group labels on people rather than see them as individuals. Abrahamic religion gives strong sanction to both--and mixes explosively with both." (In his sidebar, he ranted it.) This opens up a serious hole in all his reasoning, because at the very least the texts of *two* of the three Abrahamic religions he cites deny its followers any excuse to answer the urges of vendetta and racism or theism at all. The Law of Moses' "Eye for eye" rule is one: it's a *retreat* from multi generational vendetta, and a demand that the followers of the Mosaic covenant consider individual wrongdoing to the exclusion of group wrongdoing. [1] The central Christian law is "Love God, Love Your Neighbor". "Bless those that curse you. Do good to those who despitefully use you and persecute you." "Don't take revenge, vengeance is God's" Long letters about personal and institutional charity, without which the Christian is nothing at all, and God cannot save him. Also individualistic. Also a denial of the impulse to vendetta and racism. I don't know much about Islamic doctrine, but *all* of the Muslims I've ever met have been remarkably tolerant and peaceful people living in a mixed culture of many religions. They live a denial of the impulse to vendetta and racism. (And have historically, as a *whole* done a relatively better job of it than Christians ever did.) The centers of these belief systems direct individual behavior. It's only to the extent that thugs and demagogues use sophistry within those systems that we come out with the warped abuses which produce "fundamentalists" (even that appellation is a lie; Judeochristian fundamentals don't permit aggressive warmaking) of all stripes. I agree with the author that religion is in the mix, but natural human impulses, not religion, are at the root of the violent organized murder of the last 100 years, almost all of which were undertaken without "religion" as the root excuse. World Communism, as implemented, murdered 100,000,000 people. No "religion" there! Since other "non-religious" philosophies have mixed "explosively" with the sicknesses of the human psyche, his case is not made. Sky god indeed. He doesn't know what he's talking about, and could probably benefit from a look at all the "Christian" nations which now live nominally in *peace* with one another, having overthrown their own thugs in favor of implementing the individualistic fundaments of that Judeochristian ethical center. He could also benefit from an objective look at Leviticus. Rob [1] And if you look closely at what Israel does to its enemy neighbors, you'll see that its behavior is virtually always retaliatory self-defense. Israelis target the badguys "eye for eye", hitting innocents only when the thugs hide behind them or among them. -- [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to educate themselves. -- Orson Scott Card |
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:56:55 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote: If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them. I haven't got the first idea how to do that. Rob -- [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to educate themselves. -- Orson Scott Card |
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