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  #1  
Old November 21st 03, 05:01 PM
John T
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"Robert Perkins" wrote in message


Fights and wars have broken out over
things other than religion, and no society goes to war for that reason
alone. It's too much work!


I don't know. If a modern (albeit minor) war could be waged over a soccer
match, I'm thinking that religion would be a far more serious matter in
societies of centuries ago.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________



  #2  
Old November 21st 03, 11:56 PM
Andrew Gideon
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Robert Perkins wrote:

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:54:32 GMT, "Lenny Toulson"
wrote:

Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but
religion?


People have died in wars based on nothing but human avarice, with
religion as the dressing to break down a person's natural inclination
not to kill for the first time.


If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in
the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them.

- Andrew

  #3  
Old November 22nd 03, 12:46 AM
Robert Perkins
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:56:55 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in
the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them.


How? Marxist Communism was supposed to be free of religion. Hundreds
of millions died or were oppressed anyway. Doesn't seem to me that
there's much of a difference between a secular tyranny and one based
on a religion (unless you're willing to come along with me and call
atheism a religion).

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card
  #4  
Old November 22nd 03, 06:05 AM
Brian Burger
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Andrew Gideon wrote:

Robert Perkins wrote:

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:54:32 GMT, "Lenny Toulson"
wrote:

Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but
religion?


People have died in wars based on nothing but human avarice, with
religion as the dressing to break down a person's natural inclination
not to kill for the first time.


If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in
the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them.


That's more or less what Richard Dawkins said just after Sept 11/01:

http://www.ffrf.org/tm.php?tm=dawkins.html

Brilliant guy. Thanks to whoever posted the FfRF URL earlier in this
thread!

Brian.
  #5  
Old November 22nd 03, 06:57 AM
Robert Perkins
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:05:52 -0800, Brian Burger
wrote:

If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in
the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them.


That's more or less what Richard Dawkins said just after Sept 11/01:

http://www.ffrf.org/tm.php?tm=dawkins.html


It's nonsense, that is, fallacy in the form of the Genuine but
Insignificant Cause. If it were true, then people espousing atheist
belief systems would consistently behave much better than they've
proven to have behaved.

In harping on "religion", he misses that point, and so I don't care
what his letters and credentials are, he's demagoguing.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card
  #6  
Old November 22nd 03, 08:26 AM
Happy Dog
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"Robert Perkins" wrote in message

http://www.ffrf.org/tm.php?tm=dawkins.html


It's nonsense, that is, fallacy in the form of the Genuine but
Insignificant Cause. If it were true, then people espousing atheist
belief systems would consistently behave much better than they've
proven to have behaved.


Nope. That isn't a conclusion of the preceding material. And, where did
you get that reference from?

mo

rd


  #7  
Old November 22nd 03, 04:58 PM
Robert Perkins
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On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 03:26:14 -0500, "Happy Dog"
wrote:

"Robert Perkins" wrote in message

http://www.ffrf.org/tm.php?tm=dawkins.html


It's nonsense, that is, fallacy in the form of the Genuine but
Insignificant Cause. If it were true, then people espousing atheist
belief systems would consistently behave much better than they've
proven to have behaved.


Nope. That isn't a conclusion of the preceding material. And, where did
you get that reference from?


The reference came from two posts up. As for your rejoinder, Dawkins
wrote:

"The human psyche has two great sicknesses: the urge to carry vendetta
across generations, and the tendency to fasten group labels on people
rather than see them as individuals. Abrahamic religion gives strong
sanction to both--and mixes explosively with both."

(In his sidebar, he ranted it.)

This opens up a serious hole in all his reasoning, because at the very
least the texts of *two* of the three Abrahamic religions he cites
deny its followers any excuse to answer the urges of vendetta and
racism or theism at all.

The Law of Moses' "Eye for eye" rule is one: it's a *retreat* from
multi generational vendetta, and a demand that the followers of the
Mosaic covenant consider individual wrongdoing to the exclusion of
group wrongdoing. [1]

The central Christian law is "Love God, Love Your Neighbor". "Bless
those that curse you. Do good to those who despitefully use you and
persecute you." "Don't take revenge, vengeance is God's" Long letters
about personal and institutional charity, without which the Christian
is nothing at all, and God cannot save him. Also individualistic. Also
a denial of the impulse to vendetta and racism.

I don't know much about Islamic doctrine, but *all* of the Muslims
I've ever met have been remarkably tolerant and peaceful people living
in a mixed culture of many religions. They live a denial of the
impulse to vendetta and racism. (And have historically, as a *whole*
done a relatively better job of it than Christians ever did.)

The centers of these belief systems direct individual behavior. It's
only to the extent that thugs and demagogues use sophistry within
those systems that we come out with the warped abuses which produce
"fundamentalists" (even that appellation is a lie; Judeochristian
fundamentals don't permit aggressive warmaking) of all stripes.

I agree with the author that religion is in the mix, but natural human
impulses, not religion, are at the root of the violent organized
murder of the last 100 years, almost all of which were undertaken
without "religion" as the root excuse. World Communism, as
implemented, murdered 100,000,000 people. No "religion" there! Since
other "non-religious" philosophies have mixed "explosively" with the
sicknesses of the human psyche, his case is not made.

Sky god indeed. He doesn't know what he's talking about, and could
probably benefit from a look at all the "Christian" nations which now
live nominally in *peace* with one another, having overthrown their
own thugs in favor of implementing the individualistic fundaments of
that Judeochristian ethical center. He could also benefit from an
objective look at Leviticus.

Rob
[1] And if you look closely at what Israel does to its enemy
neighbors, you'll see that its behavior is virtually always
retaliatory self-defense. Israelis target the badguys "eye for eye",
hitting innocents only when the thugs hide behind them or among them.

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card
  #8  
Old November 23rd 03, 11:50 PM
Robert Perkins
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:56:55 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

If what you're saying is true, then religion is obviously a harmful tool in
the hands of the greedy. Let's disarm them.


I haven't got the first idea how to do that.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card
 




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