Bible-beater pilots

On 2003-11-23 06:43:03 -0800, "Jay Honeck" said

Although your beliefs are commonly accepted by many, I don't think they mee
the standard of "Truth"

Is the truth any less true just because someone chooses not to believe it

Although your beliefs are commonly accepted by many, I don't think they
meet
the standard of "Truth".

Is the truth any less true just because someone chooses not to believe it?

Nope.

But that's not what we're discussing here.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Larry,

Is the truth any less true just because someone chooses not to believe it?


A truth that needs "believing in" is not a truth. Read that definition
again!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:

Larry,

Is the truth any less true just because someone chooses not to believe it?


A truth that needs "believing in" is not a truth. Read that definition
again!

Just because no one can currently prove something doesn't mean it isn't true.
One day we will all know if it is truth or not. True or False: I will have my
PPL by the end of next year. I believe it is true, you may not, but what either
of us believe is irrelevant as to weather it is true or not. We will both have
to wait till the end of next year to find out.


--
Chris W

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

On 2003-11-23 10:29:57 -0800, Thomas Borchert said:

Larry,

Is the truth any less true just because someone chooses not to believe it?


A truth that needs "believing in" is not a truth. Read that definition
again!

I would agree that the truth does not need belief in order to be true. No problem.
But when a statement is made, whether it be truth or not, there is a choice - believe,
or do not believe. A choice not to believe a statement of truth does not make it
any less true.

Larry,

But when a statement is made, whether it be truth or not, there is a choice - believe,
or do not believe


Uh, no. I mean, yes, you can chose to believe in truths - but it doesn't make any sense.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Larry Fransson wrote:

Is the truth any less true just because someone chooses not to believe it?

Of course not. But I've never fully understood why bible-thumpers
expect non-believers to be persuaded by an argument that essentially
boils down to "It's true because I say it's true" (e.g. the lead
article in this thread), or "It's true because it says so in the
bible".

Part of the explanation why such poor argumentation technique can
nevertheless lead to converts, I think, lies in promises made by
Evangelical Christianity. The slate of a wasted life of immorality
and corruption can be wiped clean and eternal salvation guaranteed by
doing nothing more than accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. What a
deal!

Jim Rosinski
N3825Q

jim rosinski wrote:

Of course not. But I've never fully understood why bible-thumpers
expect non-believers to be persuaded by an argument that essentially
boils down to "It's true because I say it's true" (e.g. the lead
article in this thread), or "It's true because it says so in the
bible".

Part of the explanation why such poor argumentation technique can
nevertheless lead to converts, I think, lies in promises made by
Evangelical Christianity. The slate of a wasted life of immorality
and corruption can be wiped clean and eternal salvation guaranteed by
doing nothing more than accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. What a
deal!

Not all religions believe it is just a simple matter of accepting Jesus Christ.
Also, while many try and use the poor argument you described to "convert"
people, I think anyone that really understands scripture, knows that no argument
made by anyone can truly convert, if a person is to be converted, that is
something that must happen between them and God. All proselyting is for is to
introduce others to a believe, the conversion is then completely out of the
hands of the proselyter.


--
Chris Woodhouse
3147 SW 127th St.
Oklahoma City, OK 73170
405-691-5206
N35° 20.492'
W97° 34.342'

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

Chris W wrote:

Not all religions believe it is just a simple matter of accepting Jesus Christ.
Also, while many try and use the poor argument you described to "convert"
people, I think anyone that really understands scripture, knows that no argument
made by anyone can truly convert, if a person is to be converted, that is
something that must happen between them and God. All proselyting is for is to
introduce others to a believe, the conversion is then completely out of the
hands of the proselyter.

I respect and appreciate this point of view. Kind of a "lead the horse to
water but don't force him to drink" attitude. Problem is, in my experience
most proselytizers could care less how uncomfortable or miserable their
victims become during the discussion. Case in point being the lead article
of the "Bible-beater pilots" thread that preceeded this one. For many people
their religious beliefs are very personal and private. Those folks don't
appreciate being confronted in arbitrary contexts with threats of eternal
damnation if they don't accept some particular doctrine.

Jim Rosinski
N3825Q

jim rosinski wrote:

Chris W wrote:

Not all religions believe it is just a simple matter of accepting Jesus Christ.
Also, while many try and use the poor argument you described to "convert"
people, I think anyone that really understands scripture, knows that no argument
made by anyone can truly convert, if a person is to be converted, that is
something that must happen between them and God. All proselyting is for is to
introduce others to a believe, the conversion is then completely out of the
hands of the proselyter.

I respect and appreciate this point of view. Kind of a "lead the horse to
water but don't force him to drink" attitude. Problem is, in my experience
most proselytizers could care less how uncomfortable or miserable their
victims become during the discussion. Case in point being the lead article
of the "Bible-beater pilots" thread that preceeded this one. For many people
their religious beliefs are very personal and private. Those folks don't
appreciate being confronted in arbitrary contexts with threats of eternal
damnation if they don't accept some particular doctrine.

The situation Jay described is very unfortunate and I can't see how a confrontation
like that could ever do any good. Religion is very personal, there are ways to
discuss and share religious beliefs with people you don't know very well, but only if
they are interested in discussing religion and then only in a non confrontational way,
I however rarely discuss it with people I don't know very well and then I always
listen to what they believe and simply tell how my beliefs are different and why I
believe the way I do. It's also unfortunate that even members of my religion can be
confrontational in their proselytizing, although I don't know of any as bad as what
Jay experienced. I think that if you run across someone that is searching for
something different or just curious, they will be willing to talk to you, but if their
not of that mindset, all the confrontation in the world isn't going to do any good,
unless you are a very manipulative person and the person you are talking to is easily
manipulated, in which case I think you have lost the whole point of sharing your
beliefs with others.




--
Chris Woodhouse
3147 SW 127th St.
Oklahoma City, OK 73170
405-691-5206
N35° 20.492'
W97° 34.342'

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania