Bible-beater pilots

"Wdtabor" wrote:
Who in the LP ever advocated unrestrained power?

I don't believe I accused the LP of that. I accused the LP of blind
faith in l-f capitalism and the inability to see that it leads to
economic entities with unrestrained power.

Most abuses masquerading as laissz-faire capitalism
are actually unholy alliances of government and some individual or
corporation. Aircraft certification is a good example of a group of
corporations using the force of government to bar competition.

That is true but beside the point. Unrestrained corporations using the
force of
economic power can bar competition, as well.

How much less expensive would GA aircraft be if the government
played no part in certification? Let anyone build an airplane and put
it on the market. Let the AOPA, or a consortium of aircraft insurers,
do the rating and let the individual purchaser assume the risks if he
chooses the unrated airplane.

You're preaching to the choir.

Freedom and competition go together.

Absolutely. But true, l-f capitalism must inevitably produce economic
colossi that can suppress competition and freedom.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:

Absolutely. But true, l-f capitalism must inevitably produce economic
colossi that can suppress competition and freedom.

That's what has happened and is currently happening in pretty much every
industry in this country right now.


--
Chris W

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

Absolutely. But true, l-f capitalism must inevitably produce economic
colossi that can suppress competition and freedom.

That's what has happened and is currently happening in pretty much every
industry in this country right now.

Think so?

Please point to an example of such a concentration of power in this country
where government has not been used to suppress competition in some way or there
has been unlawful coercion in the marketplace.

Remember that libertarains do not oppose laws that protect us from unlawful
interference in the making and execution of contracts.

I think you are tarring laissez-faire capitalism with the sins of a system that
only *claims* that label.

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

Wdtabor wrote:

Absolutely. But true, l-f capitalism must inevitably produce economic
colossi that can suppress competition and freedom.

That's what has happened and is currently happening in pretty much every
industry in this country right now.

Think so?

Please point to an example of such a concentration of power in this country
where government has not been used to suppress competition in some way or there
has been unlawful coercion in the marketplace.

Microsoft is the best example. They create new products, and use their marketing
power and money to try and drive competitors out of business, Netscape being just
one of many examples of that there are even some examples where they have failed
because their marketing wasn't enough to over come the worthless product they put
together when the competition in this case had a far superior product. They have
told computer resellers that if they ship any computers with a competitors product
pre installed then they will force that reseller to pay a much higher price for
Microsoft products. In one case Microsoft had some kind of agreement with computer
resellers where they had to put windows on all computers, that way those who want
to run other operating systems still had to pay for windows, this in commonly
refereed to as the Microsoft tax. While the government is involved and has
pretended to do something about it, in reality they have done nothing.

Then there is the music industry where a few very large corporations control
everything and everyone from the DJs to song writers to artists to which songs on a
new CD they are going to let us hear. In this case the government is helping them
make it even worse, by taking our rights that the copyright laws give us.

I'm not trying to suggest that if libertarians were in charge that it would be any
better or worse, just that it is pretty bad the way it is now.


--
Chris W

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

"Chris W" wrote in message


... there are
even some examples where they have failed because their marketing
wasn't enough to over come the worthless product they put together
when the competition in this case had a far superior product.

Was that supposed to support your argument?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
____________________

John T wrote:

"Chris W" wrote in message


... there are
even some examples where they have failed because their marketing
wasn't enough to over come the worthless product they put together
when the competition in this case had a far superior product.

Was that supposed to support your argument?

No, that was just in there as a preemptive strike against those that
might argue that the reason all those other companies went out of
business is because MS has a better produce, they do not. There is the
rare exception where a quality product won out over the bully but I
think it was only because that product had been around for a long time
before MS tried to take them out, and their product had a large and
strong following as well as being of high quality.


--
Chris W

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

John T wrote:

"Chris W" wrote in message
... there are
even some examples where they have failed because their marketing
wasn't enough to over come the worthless product they put together
when the competition in this case had a far superior product.

Was that supposed to support your argument?

No, that was just in there as a preemptive strike against those that
might argue that the reason all those other companies went out of
business is because MS has a better produce, they do not. There is the
rare exception where a quality product won out over the bully but I
think it was only because that product had been around for a long time
before MS tried to take them out, and their product had a large and
strong following as well as being of high quality.

MS bought Fox Software because it was a competitor to
Access. For a while, MS put the Access front-end on FoxPro but
in a short time, FoxPro went away. At the time, FoxPro was
far superior to Access. Don't know about it anymore.

MS tried to buy Intuit to get TurboTax but Intuit successfully
fought it off.

In article , Chris W writes:

Please point to an example of such a concentration of power in this country
where government has not been used to suppress competition in some way or
there
has been unlawful coercion in the marketplace.

Microsoft is the best example. They create new products, and use their
marketing
power and money to try and drive competitors out of business, Netscape being
just
one of many examples of that there are even some examples where they have
failed
because their marketing wasn't enough to over come the worthless product they
put
together when the competition in this case had a far superior product.

I like arguing politics, and I will even venture cautiously into religion, but
I find it far to polarized a battlefield to argue the relative merit of MS and
it's competitors quality.

However, the market place does not function on 'supply and quality' but on
supply and *demand.* Whether IE or Netscape is the better browser, the demand
for IE won out. That is probably a combination of marketing and integration,
you COULD buy a Ford but get a Chevy engine installed, but the added hassle of
adapting it wouldn't really be worth it. IE won out over Netscape, get over it.


They
have
told computer resellers that if they ship any computers with a competitors
product
pre installed then they will force that reseller to pay a much higher price
for
Microsoft products. In one case Microsoft had some kind of agreement with
computer
resellers where they had to put windows on all computers, that way those who
want
to run other operating systems still had to pay for windows, this in commonly
refereed to as the Microsoft tax. While the government is involved and has
pretended to do something about it, in reality they have done nothing.


There are thousands of computer assemblers who will be happy to sell you a
computer without an operating system. There always have been, but there were
also some vendors who would sell you one with Windows for less than the others
would sell one without an operating system. You are only harmed if you insist
on doing business with those suppliers who made that deal with MS. so long as
you have th choice to take your business elsewhere, you have no complaint.

Then there is the music industry where a few very large corporations control
everything and everyone from the DJs to song writers to artists to which
songs on a
new CD they are going to let us hear. In this case the government is helping
them
make it even worse, by taking our rights that the copyright laws give us.


Were those artists forced at gunpoint to sign those contracts? If so, call the
FBI, if not, then whose rights were transgressed?

I'm not trying to suggest that if libertarians were in charge that it would
be any
better or worse, just that it is pretty bad the way it is now.


Things are bad only where we have strayed from capitalism by letting the
governemt interfere in some way.

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

"Wdtabor" wrote in message
...
I like arguing politics, and I will even venture cautiously into religion,
but
I find it far to polarized a battlefield to argue the relative merit of MS
and
it's competitors quality.

Amazing what the world has come to when religion evokes less of an emotional
response than the choice of a piece of software.

Peter,

Amazing what the world has come to when religion evokes less of an emotional
response than the choice of a piece of software.


Soudns to me like rationality has gone up ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)