New Aviation Terminology

"John Harper" wrote in message news:1069786900.839440@sj-nntpcache-3...

Actually there are some changes as a result of Tenerife. For
example in the UK the word "cleared" is used only in "cleared
for takeoff". Other uses (e.g. for taxi) use some other word,
"permission" iirc.

How do they read your IFR clearance to you? That was the
issue at Tenerife (well part of it). I don't believe that is any
resolved now in the US...

From 3-7-1 in the Air Traffic Control Handbook:

"b. Do not use the word "cleared" in conjunction with authorization for
aircraft to taxi or equipment/vehicle/personnel operations. Use the prefix
"taxi," "proceed," or "hold," as appropriate, for aircraft instructions and
"proceed" or "hold" for equipment/vehicles/personnel."

Bob Gardner

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1069786900.839440@sj-nntpcache-3...

Actually there are some changes as a result of Tenerife. For
example in the UK the word "cleared" is used only in "cleared
for takeoff". Other uses (e.g. for taxi) use some other word,
"permission" iirc.

How do they read your IFR clearance to you? That was the
issue at Tenerife (well part of it). I don't believe that is any
resolved now in the US...

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message news:clOwb.106635$Dw6.513567@attbi_s02...
From 3-7-1 in the Air Traffic Control Handbook:

"b. Do not use the word "cleared" in conjunction with authorization for
aircraft to taxi or equipment/vehicle/personnel operations. Use the prefix
"taxi," "proceed," or "hold," as appropriate, for aircraft instructions and
"proceed" or "hold" for equipment/vehicles/personnel."

That is fine Bob, but immaterial.
The Tenerife crash invovled the KLM flight being in position in hold. The
first officer called in saying they were "ready for their ATC clearance."
What he got back was an IFR clearance"
"Cleared to Papa Beacon ...

This exact same thing would happen today at many US airports (let's avoid
going back to the clearance on request discussion).

3-7-1 doesn't seem to have done anything to alleviate what happened at Tenerife.

Ignore Tenerife for the moment. John Harper said that in Europe, the word
"cleared" was no longer used except for takeoff clearances. In your reply,
you said, in so many words, that nothing similar had been done in the US. My
post was intended to point out that something has indeed been done in the
US.

Bob Gardner

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:clOwb.106635$Dw6.513567@attbi_s02...
From 3-7-1 in the Air Traffic Control Handbook:

"b. Do not use the word "cleared" in conjunction with authorization for
aircraft to taxi or equipment/vehicle/personnel operations. Use the
prefix
"taxi," "proceed," or "hold," as appropriate, for aircraft instructions
and
"proceed" or "hold" for equipment/vehicles/personnel."

That is fine Bob, but immaterial.
The Tenerife crash invovled the KLM flight being in position in hold.
The
first officer called in saying they were "ready for their ATC clearance."
What he got back was an IFR clearance"
"Cleared to Papa Beacon ...

This exact same thing would happen today at many US airports (let's avoid
going back to the clearance on request discussion).

3-7-1 doesn't seem to have done anything to alleviate what happened at
Tenerife.

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message news:8dPwb.304758$Tr4.962384@attbi_s03...
Ignore Tenerife for the moment. John Harper said that in Europe, the word
"cleared" was no longer used except for takeoff clearances. In your reply,
you said, in so many words, that nothing similar had been done in the US. My
post was intended to point out that something has indeed been done in the
US.

He was following up comments on Tenerife, and I asked "how do you get your IFR clearances."
I was specifically asking how his would have hellped Tenerife (perhaps there was
more to it than he was saying).,

Your comments are off the topic.

I've never tried to fly IFR in Europe so I have no idea. Maybe
somebody else can answer...?

John

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:8dPwb.304758$Tr4.962384@attbi_s03...
Ignore Tenerife for the moment. John Harper said that in Europe, the
word
"cleared" was no longer used except for takeoff clearances. In your
reply,
you said, in so many words, that nothing similar had been done in the
US. My
post was intended to point out that something has indeed been done in
the
US.

He was following up comments on Tenerife, and I asked "how do you get your
IFR clearances."
I was specifically asking how his would have hellped Tenerife (perhaps
there was
more to it than he was saying).,

Your comments are off the topic.

The Tenerife crash invovled the KLM flight being in position in hold. The
first officer called in saying they were "ready for their ATC clearance."
What he got back was an IFR clearance"
"Cleared to Papa Beacon ...



What were they doing in position for takeoff without an IFR clearance in
hand???

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

What were they doing in position for takeoff without an IFR clearance in
hand???


It's a rather small airport and several rather large aircraft had diverted
there for weather. They were preparing to depart, awaiting their clearance.

They were preparing to depart, awaiting their clearance.

You don't await IFR clearance sitting on the runway. I don't care what kind of
airplane you are, or why you diverted. When waiting for an IFR clearance, you
stay off the runway.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

You don't await IFR clearance sitting on the runway. I don't care what
kind of
airplane you are, or why you diverted. When waiting for an IFR clearance,
you
stay off the runway.


At a controlled field you wait where ATC tells you to wait.