Air Force One seen by BA pilot

"Big John" wrote in message
...

I thought center gave vertical and horizontal separation for birds on
same over water route?

They do.

Didn't they a few years ago reduce vertical
separation from 2K to 1K if certain (new accurate alt measuring)
equipment was on board the aircraft to increase (double) traffic
density on the overseas routes?

Yes, it's called RVSM = Reduced Verticle Seperation Minimums

If flight was direct from way point to way point then I doubt if the
birds came within visual range??? Would be an odd throw of the dice.

Huh? With all do respect, I do this for a living and there are "birds"
somewhere in the Flight Levels that come within visual range of each other
(both same and opposite direction) every minuite of every day. We are often
able to visually identify company paint schemes and aircraft types (again
both same and opposite direction) all the time. There is nothing odd about
it at all. Plus, with the 1K RVSM sep that you talk about above, it would
be even easier.

That said, I can postulate a situation where two birds with a few
thousand feet vertical clearance going the same direction on the same
route and with different cruising speeds, slowly pass each other and
BA be able to recognize the distinctive paint job on AF1. This in day
light of course.

In the real world "birds" don't just flash past each other in the FL's in
the blink of an eye. Even if opposite direction you usually have several
seconds of good visual (weather conditions permiting, of course) opportunity
for an identification.

Tale has a lot of characteristics of a good bar story ...

I disagree. To those of us in the trenches (er, Flight Levels) it has the
characteristics of an entirley plausable event that happens every day.

Good show George.

Agreed.

Regards,
Mish

Gary

Not trying to put you down but have lots of experience with 1000 mph +
rates of closure in heavy iron. That's over 16 miles a minute and
about 1500 feet per second. At one eye blink per second that's about
7500 feet for 5 seconds. That's almost a mile and a half travel in the
5 seconds. If it takes the brain 2 seconds to process information a
bird can be pretty dam close before one can try to recognize.

Unless one is forewarned by center, aircrew may or may not see
closing traffic unless pulling a con. Trans ocean traffic is very
boring (as you know being in the business) and no one crew member is
tasked and sits there with an eye ball covering the forward quadrant
during the long cruise portion of flight. In fact some airlines allow
one pilot to nap during fight so he will be sharp at destination I'm
told. They found some pilots were doing this due to late night and
boredom so they made it legal ) Couldn't do that in the fighters so
they gave us Phenobarb (sp) prior to landing.

All of this discussion after the fact is media garbage. Bird with
President aboard does NOT have to use the Call Sign AF!. In Stealth
mode it can be called anything.

I'm just surprised that some media type didn't let the cat out of the
bag unless they took all the cell phones away and gave everyone a pat
down and only let them use the birds com system after they had
departed Iraq and were in International airspace.

No matter what the nay sayer's say, good trip and a boost for those in
Iraq even if he was pretty closely monitored and protected. He did go
in harms way and a brace of mortars could have caused a lot of
casualties and put the media in a frenzy.

Big John

New subject. Where can I get the positive and negative G limits of
commercial birds, 747, 757, 767, etc? I want operational limits not
ultimate. Have looked on Internet and not found so far.



On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:34:09 GMT, "Gary Mishler"
wrote:

"Big John" wrote in message
.. .

I thought center gave vertical and horizontal separation for birds on
same over water route?

They do.

Didn't they a few years ago reduce vertical
separation from 2K to 1K if certain (new accurate alt measuring)
equipment was on board the aircraft to increase (double) traffic
density on the overseas routes?

Yes, it's called RVSM = Reduced Verticle Seperation Minimums

If flight was direct from way point to way point then I doubt if the
birds came within visual range??? Would be an odd throw of the dice.

Huh? With all do respect, I do this for a living and there are "birds"
somewhere in the Flight Levels that come within visual range of each other
(both same and opposite direction) every minuite of every day. We are often
able to visually identify company paint schemes and aircraft types (again
both same and opposite direction) all the time. There is nothing odd about
it at all. Plus, with the 1K RVSM sep that you talk about above, it would
be even easier.

That said, I can postulate a situation where two birds with a few
thousand feet vertical clearance going the same direction on the same
route and with different cruising speeds, slowly pass each other and
BA be able to recognize the distinctive paint job on AF1. This in day
light of course.

In the real world "birds" don't just flash past each other in the FL's in
the blink of an eye. Even if opposite direction you usually have several
seconds of good visual (weather conditions permiting, of course) opportunity
for an identification.

Tale has a lot of characteristics of a good bar story ...

I disagree. To those of us in the trenches (er, Flight Levels) it has the
characteristics of an entirley plausable event that happens every day.

Good show George.

Agreed.

Regards,
Mish

Big John wrote:

Not trying to put you down but have lots of experience with 1000 mph +
rates of closure in heavy iron. That's over 16 miles a minute and
about 1500 feet per second. At one eye blink per second that's about
7500 feet for 5 seconds. That's almost a mile and a half travel in the
5 seconds. If it takes the brain 2 seconds to process information a
bird can be pretty dam close before one can try to recognize.

While it's not a sure thing, it's by no means impossible, or even
unlikely. As a passenger, I have been able to identify the owners of
aircraft flying in the opposite direction while traversing the North
Atlantic. If I happen to be staring out the window, and the lighting is
right, some paint schemes are quite clear in the five or so seconds you
see them. The rapid movement of the aircraft first attracts your eyes,
and you tend focus on the aircraft just as it passes. Further, 747s
aren't that common on the North Atlantic run these days, and the Air
Force paint scheme is easily recognizable, making identification that
much more likely, if you happen to be looking in the right direction.

"James Robinson" wrote in message
...

While it's not a sure thing, it's by no means impossible, or even
unlikely. As a passenger, I have been able to identify the owners of
aircraft flying in the opposite direction while traversing the North
Atlantic. If I happen to be staring out the window, and the lighting is
right, some paint schemes are quite clear in the five or so seconds you
see them. The rapid movement of the aircraft first attracts your eyes,
and you tend focus on the aircraft just as it passes. Further, 747s
aren't that common on the North Atlantic run these days, and the Air
Force paint scheme is easily recognizable, making identification that
much more likely, if you happen to be looking in the right direction.

Exactly right! Thank you.

I'm just surprised that some media type didn't let the cat out of the
bag unless they took all the cell phones away

No, they only had them remove the batteries

No reporter so well established that he gets a seat on AF1 is going to
jeopardize his career by breaking the rules that way, especially when
told up front that the plane will turn around if word gets out.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Big John" wrote in message
...

Not trying to put you down but have lots of experience with 1000 mph +
rates of closure in heavy iron. That's over 16 miles a minute and
about 1500 feet per second. At one eye blink per second that's about
7500 feet for 5 seconds. That's almost a mile and a half travel in the
5 seconds. If it takes the brain 2 seconds to process information a
bird can be pretty dam close before one can try to recognize.

All that aside, it happens every minuite of every day ....

Big John wrote
New subject. Where can I get the positive and negative G limits
of commercial birds, 747, 757, 767, etc? I want operational
limits not ultimate. Have looked on Internet and not found so
far.

From my B-727 AIRCRAFT manual, I don't know about BIRDS.

Flaps UP.........+2.5...-1.0
Flaps DOWN.......+2.0...-0.0

Bob Moore

"Big John" wrote in message

I'm just surprised that some media type didn't let the cat out of the
bag unless they took all the cell phones away

My understanding (according to Wash Post) is that that is about exactly what
happened. Reporters were given cell phones back after departing Baghdad.


Given the incessant and "uncontrolled" leakage that goes on these days,
Everyone should note that no one (NO ONE) in Congress was informed, and only
a few hand picked press who were on the craft. The way to enhance security
is to keep Congress out of the loop. Sad, isn't it?

JG

"John Gaquin" wrote in message ...
Given the incessant and "uncontrolled" leakage that goes on these days,
Everyone should note that no one (NO ONE) in Congress was informed, and only
a few hand picked press who were on the craft.

Actually, they weren't hand picked.

They were just whoever was on the list for White House media pool duty.

Big John wrote
New subject. Where can I get the positive and negative G limits
of commercial birds, 747, 757, 767, etc? I want operational
limits not ultimate. Have looked on Internet and not found so
far.

Section 25.337: Limit maneuvering load factors.
(a) Except where limited by maximum (static) lift coefficients,
the airplane is assumed to be subjected to symmetrical maneuvers
resulting in the limit maneuvering load factors prescribed in this
section. Pitching velocities appropriate to the corresponding pull-
up and steady turn maneuvers must be taken into account.

(b) The positive limit maneuvering load factor n for any speed up
to Vn may not be less than 2.1+24,000/ (W +10,000) except that n
may not be less than 2.5 and need not be greater than 3.8 -- where
W is the design maximum takeoff weight.

(c) The negative limit maneuvering load factor --

(1) May not be less than -1.0 at speeds up to VC; and

(2) Must vary linearly with speed from the value at VC to zero at
VD.

(d) Maneuvering load factors lower than those specified in this
section may be used if the airplane has design features that make
it impossible to exceed these values in flight.