Va and negative g's & fun non-acrobatic maneuvers

(Dan Thomas) wrote

It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil
comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The
only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.

The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff with
all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All of
you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
doesn't require areobatic training!

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

But the last line of your post says it all. For an ATP CFI who has
done it hundreds of times before, sure. For a fairly new pilot
who has never done it with a CFI beside him... not so good.
If he's worrying about negative AOA stalls then he's clearly
thinking about more than a 0.1G push-over.

What do you do about getting the dust out of everywhere
afterwards? Or do you do it often enough in the same plane
that the dust doesn't accumulate (as happens with acro planes)?

John


"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 7...
(Dan Thomas) wrote

It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil
comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The
only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.

The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff with
all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All of
you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
doesn't require areobatic training!

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1070328589.456816@sj-nntpcache-3...
But the last line of your post says it all. For an ATP CFI who has
done it hundreds of times before, sure. For a fairly new pilot
who has never done it with a CFI beside him... not so good.
If he's worrying about negative AOA stalls then he's clearly
thinking about more than a 0.1G push-over.

What do you do about getting the dust out of everywhere
afterwards? Or do you do it often enough in the same plane
that the dust doesn't accumulate (as happens with acro planes)?


Hear about the Rats leaving a sinking ship, but the dust leaving an
aircraft doing aeros, sounds a hand way to clean out the insides.:-)
--
---
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe.
/
don't bother me with insignificiant nonsence such as spelling,
I don't care if it spelt properly
/
Sometimes I fly and sometimes I just dream about it.
:-)


John


"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 7...
(Dan Thomas) wrote

It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the
pencil
comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't.
The
only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.

The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff
with
all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All
of
you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
doesn't require areobatic training!

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

I think the bit where the original poster said:

"I am not looking to induce negative g's, only zero g's and zero lift."

sort of answers that. He's just being careful, just in case.

Paul

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1070328589.456816@sj-nntpcache-3...
If he's worrying about negative AOA stalls then he's clearly
thinking about more than a 0.1G push-over.

FAR 91.303, Aerobatic Flight, states in pertinent part:

"For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal acceleration, not
neccessary for normal flight."

In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially by an
ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver results in both
"an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal acceleration," and is "not
necessary for normal flight."

What exactly constitutes an "aerobatic maneuver" is left open for
interpretation, and in the end depends on who's looking...

And while the reply below is good, it is debatable whether or not it
is the ONLY sensible one thus far. Given that the original poster has
never done this before, isn't it prudent to suggest he get some dual
in the particular maneuver before attempting it by himself, or worse,
attempting it for the first time with the plane loaded with someone
else's kids???

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com



Robert Moore wrote in message .7...
(Dan Thomas) wrote

It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil
comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The
only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.

The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff with
all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All of
you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
doesn't require areobatic training!

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

(Rich Stowell) wrote

FAR 91.303, Aerobatic Flight, states in pertinent part:

"For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal acceleration, not
neccessary for normal flight."

I wonder where a 45 degree steep turn fall in this context?

In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially
by an ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver
results in both "an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal
acceleration," and is "not necessary for normal flight."

Attitudes in the roller-coaster maneuver need not exceed the pitch
angles encountered in short-field takeoffs and landings.

Bob Moore

Robert Moore wrote in message .7...
(Rich Stowell) wrote

FAR 91.303, Aerobatic Flight, states in pertinent part:

"For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal acceleration, not
neccessary for normal flight."

I wonder where a 45 degree steep turn fall in this context?


It depends who's watching, sort of like "careless or reckless
operation." For example, a couple has lived under the crosswind
approach to a small airport for the last 70 years (and not without
animosity towards the airport for that long). During that time, the
couple has never witnessed an airplane do anything other than smooth,
shallow banked turns to enter the pattern. One day, in comes a pilot
fast and low who crisply cranks the airplane into a 45 (heck, why not
even 60) degree bank. One could argue that given the precedent set
over the previous 70 years, that type of maneuver was "not necessary
for normal flight" over the couple's house at that airport. I'm sure
the couple could find some lawyer somewhere to make that case. The
definition of aerobatic flight is abstract enough that it could be
used against a pilot if someone is looking for a reason--any
reason--to bust the pilot. Of course, lots of other FARs can be
interpreted against the pilot as well.


In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially
by an ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver
results in both "an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal
acceleration," and is "not necessary for normal flight."

Attitudes in the roller-coaster maneuver need not exceed the pitch
angles encountered in short-field takeoffs and landings.


True for some more skilled in performing the maneuver than others.
That still doesn't get around the "abnormal accleration" or "not
necessary for normal flight" caveats. The point really was to
encourage the original poster not to experiment with unfamiliar
maneuvers on his own, but to take 0.5 hours of dual for safety's sake.

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com

Rich Stowell wrote:

In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially by an
ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver results in both
"an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal acceleration," and is "not
necessary for normal flight."

What exactly constitutes an "aerobatic maneuver" is left open for
interpretation, and in the end depends on who's looking...

It just depends on what you consider to be "normal flight".

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

Ever see the Americas Funniest Video where the camera shows two people in
the front seat of a small plane. The shadow is changing, but you can't tell
what they're up to untill the dog comes floating up out of the back seat,
does a quarter turn and floats up in between them.

It's hilarious.

mike regish

"Rich Stowell" wrote in message
om...
FAR 91.303, Aerobatic Flight, states in pertinent part:

"For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal acceleration, not
neccessary for normal flight."

In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially by an
ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver results in both
"an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal acceleration," and is "not
necessary for normal flight."

What exactly constitutes an "aerobatic maneuver" is left open for
interpretation, and in the end depends on who's looking...

And while the reply below is good, it is debatable whether or not it
is the ONLY sensible one thus far. Given that the original poster has
never done this before, isn't it prudent to suggest he get some dual
in the particular maneuver before attempting it by himself, or worse,
attempting it for the first time with the plane loaded with someone
else's kids???

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com



Robert Moore wrote in message
.7...
(Dan Thomas) wrote

It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil
comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The
only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.

The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff with
all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All of
you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
doesn't require areobatic training!

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

In article 0yuzb.19348$_M.65660@attbi_s54,
"mike regish" wrote:

Ever see the Americas Funniest Video where the camera shows two people in
the front seat of a small plane. The shadow is changing, but you can't tell
what they're up to untill the dog comes floating up out of the back seat,
does a quarter turn and floats up in between them.

I didn't see that video but I did see my wife to the same thing one day
when we hit a rather strong windshear.

It's hilarious.

For me, not so much for her.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html