Enola Gay Damaged at Air & Space Museum Opening

Dan Luke wrote:

It would surprise me to learn that the Soviets were terrified of a
weapon based on the thoroughly discredited idea that heavily armed,
unescorted strategic bombers could fight their way deep into enemy
territory with acceptable losses.

You mean like the losses the B-29s took bombing Japan? Of course, the losses to
the B-17s against Germany were worse. Lets take the worst case there. We lost
something over 60% of the planes that flew the Schweinfurt "Black Thursday" raid
and over half the planes made it to the target. At one time, we could have
launched over 30 B-36s at any given moment. So only 10 of them reach their
targets. Stalin isn't going to be upset at the prospect of losing 10 major
production centers? He would certainly be worried about the fact that the odds
were good that he'd be in one of them.

The B-36 always struck me as a flying
porkbarrel project propelled by Curtis LeMay's ego.

The B-36 project was started prior to America's entry into WWII. Roosevelt was
afraid that Britain would be lost and that the U.S. would have to enter the war
against Germany without being able to base bombers in the British Isles. It was
planned that we would use it for a conventional bombing campaign against Germany
operating from bases in the U.S. Postwar development was a case basically of the
only game in town. It was the only plane capable of carrying nuclear weapons into
the USSR that could possibly reach production in a few years. It was a stopgap
measure, but it worked until we could get something better in place.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Dan Luke wrote:

It would surprise me to learn that the Soviets were terrified of a
weapon based on the thoroughly discredited idea that heavily armed,
unescorted strategic bombers could fight their way deep into enemy
territory with acceptable losses.

You mean like the losses the B-29s took bombing Japan? Of course, the
losses to
the B-17s against Germany were worse. Lets take the worst case there. We
lost
something over 60% of the planes that flew the Schweinfurt "Black
Thursday" raid
and over half the planes made it to the target.

Not 60%, George...60 PLANES...out of over 300 that took on the mission. I've
leave the math (one-fifth, for the math challenged) to you.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
You mean like the losses the B-29s took bombing Japan?

The Japanese air forces were too decimated and technologically too
inferior for effective interception of the fast, high flying B-29s. That
would not have been the case with B-36s vs. Soviet air power.

At one time, we could have launched over 30 B-36s at any given moment.
So only 10 of them reach their targets.

That is by no means certain, given the vast distances the B-36s would
have had to fly unescorted.

He would certainly be worried about the fact that the odds were good
that
he'd be in one of them.

He would have had a long time to get out of town.

The B-36 always struck me as a flying
porkbarrel project propelled by Curtis LeMay's ego.

It was the only plane capable of carrying nuclear weapons into
the USSR that could possibly reach production in a few years.

What about the B-29 (and B-50)? We had a lot more of them, and there
were plenty of runways in Europe they could use, which was not the case
with the B-36.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Given that the soviet planners had thought all this through, in my mind it
is unlikely that a single bomber would have gotten through... The soviets
had rings of interceptor squadrons, numbering in the thousands - cheap,
short range, totally expendable, fast climbing jet fighters... Each bomber
would have been like a sparrow flying into one cloud of hornets after
another... That is why ICBM's are the weapon of deterrence, not bombers...

Denny
"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
You mean like the losses the B-29s took bombing Japan?

The discussion I believe was about the B-36. It flew above the
absolute ceiling of contemporary MiG fighters. The British begged for
a chance to challenge the 36, but the USAF wisely ignored them. No
American fighter of the time could get up there, and no Russian
either.

In tests over Florida, in the rare cases where an interceptor could
match the 36's altitude, all the bomber had to do was execute a slow
turn. When the fighter matched it, it fell away. And nobody knows if
the 36 was flying at its absolute ceiling in those tests; evidently it
could go much higher.

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:07:48 -0500, "Dennis O'Connor"
wrote:

Given that the soviet planners had thought all this through, in my mind it
is unlikely that a single bomber would have gotten through... The soviets
had rings of interceptor squadrons, numbering in the thousands - cheap,
short range, totally expendable, fast climbing jet fighters... Each bomber
would have been like a sparrow flying into one cloud of hornets after
another... That is why ICBM's are the weapon of deterrence, not bombers...

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

The discussion I believe was about the B-36. It flew above the
absolute ceiling of contemporary MiG fighters. The British begged for
a chance to challenge the 36, but the USAF wisely ignored them. No
American fighter of the time could get up there, and no Russian
either.

In tests over Florida, in the rare cases where an interceptor could
match the 36's altitude, all the bomber had to do was execute a slow
turn. When the fighter matched it, it fell away. And nobody knows if
the 36 was flying at its absolute ceiling in those tests; evidently it
could go much higher.

While the B-36 was obsolete within a few years, it did have the altitude
capabilities you mention. Whats more, the MiG-15 could not reach those
altitudes; even if they could their oxygen systems were so bad their pilots
would be passing out long before they could climb high enough to intercept.

OTOH, read Chcuk Yeagers auto-biography where he speaks of intercepting the
B-36 and how they tried to stack the tests in favor of the '36.

The discussion I believe was about the B-36. It flew above the
absolute ceiling of contemporary MiG fighters. The British begged for
a chance to challenge the 36, but the USAF wisely ignored them.

Why? I take it the British fighters *could* get 'em?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

The discussion I believe was about the B-36. It flew above the
absolute ceiling of contemporary MiG fighters. The British begged for
a chance to challenge the 36, but the USAF wisely ignored them.

Why? I take it the British fighters *could* get 'em?

In the late 40s, Rolls-Royce made the best jet engines in the world. The Russians
put copies of that engine in the MiG-17 after a socialist British government gave
them the design.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...

In the late 40s, Rolls-Royce made the best jet engines in the world. The
Russians
put copies of that engine in the MiG-17 after a socialist British
government gave
them the design.


MiG-15.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:NbiFb.618902$Fm2.558090@attbi_s04...
The discussion I believe was about the B-36. It flew above the
absolute ceiling of contemporary MiG fighters. The British begged for
a chance to challenge the 36, but the USAF wisely ignored them.

Why? I take it the British fighters *could* get 'em?
Lets put it this way, There was the case some years ago, of a U2, coming
over the UK, in excess of 82000ft, with his camera doors open. When two
fighters came up on his wingtips, and 'invited' him to come down and
explain, the comment from the pilot afterwards was "we didn't realise you
could get so high". Back in those days, the ceiling of the old
'frightening', was limited primarily by the fact that you burnt so much fuel
getting up there...

Best Wishes