OK, what the hell has happened to the Brits?

In article t, Steven P.
McNicoll wrote:
So you're depending upon the terrorists not learning a secret.

How would they learn it?

There are dozens of ways. It's sort of like solving an equation - from
the knowns you can derive the value of x. The IRA (nothing to do with
pensions, but republican terrorists in Northern Ireland used to spy
quite frequently to find the identity of their enemies and kill them),
and the IRA weren't on suicide missions. Someone determined enough to
face the certainty of death will probably be even more determined.

A brute-force way of doing it would be to have two terrorist cells on
board. The first one begins the hijack. The sky marshall takes charge
and does his job *instantly identifying himself and where he keeps his
gun* to the second cell. The second cell then swing into action some
time later, first seizing control of the sky marshal and his weapon, and
then continuing with their plan. And now they are armed with a gun.

Since flight attendants are allowed on the flight deck, where there is a
crash axe available, what security vetting are we doing of flight
attendants? What does the sky marshal do when an FA incapacitates the
crew with a crash axe and locks the reinforced cockpit door behind him?

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Dylan Smith" wrote

There are dozens of ways. It's sort of like solving an equation
--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man

The bottom line is, no terrorist will ever again take over a passenger
flight. The crowd will overcome them, or crash the plane, well short of its
objective.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:

The bottom line is, no terrorist will ever again take over a passenger
flight. The crowd will overcome them, or crash the plane, well short of
its objective.

I tend to agree with you, assuming insufficient weapons in the hands of the
terrorists, but then this doesn't explain the efforts towards which the TSA
is going in that regard.

However, it does explain why the TSA has expressed concern about cargo
flights. After all, these are just as large and fueled as passenger craft
but w/o a cargo that fights back.

Thinking along those lines: how long from first lesson to "freight dog"?
What's done to secure the cargo handlers? The cargo? I seem to recall
reading that certain shippers could bypass security, and that the threshold
for being one of those shippers wasn't terribly high.

- Andrew

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Dylan Smith" wrote

There are dozens of ways. It's sort of like solving an equation

The bottom line is, no terrorist will ever again take over a passenger
flight. The crowd will overcome them, or crash the plane, well short of
its
objective.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/1936942.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2035546.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2228720.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/2330021.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/2374061.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/2486935.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2502033.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2520069.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2676081.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2738993.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2897727.stm

Some hijackers taken by crew, some by air marshals, some
were landed safely under orders of the hijackers. Not sure
about any hijackers taken by passengers, I think I saw that
it happened in one of them.

All since 11/9/2001. So you can't say the crowd would
overcome them all the time and none would be successful.
You also can't say no one would try to hijack a plane in
the old sense any more.

Another take on sky marshals:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2144133.stm

Paul

"Paul Sengupta" wrote in message
...
"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Dylan Smith" wrote

There are dozens of ways. It's sort of like solving an equation

The bottom line is, no terrorist will ever again take over a passenger
flight. The crowd will overcome them, or crash the plane, well short of
its
objective.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/1936942.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2035546.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2228720.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/2330021.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/2374061.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/2486935.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2502033.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2520069.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2676081.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2738993.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2897727.stm

Some hijackers taken by crew, some by air marshals, some
were landed safely under orders of the hijackers. Not sure
about any hijackers taken by passengers, I think I saw that
it happened in one of them.

If they were American planes then it is more likely that SLF would get
involved

besides which none of these hijackings were Al Quaida




All since 11/9/2001. So you can't say the crowd would
overcome them all the time and none would be successful.
You also can't say no one would try to hijack a plane in
the old sense any more.

Another take on sky marshals:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2144133.stm

Paul

If they were American planes then it is more likely that SLF would get
involved

What the devil is SLF?

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
link.net...
If they were American planes then it is more likely that SLF would get
involved

What the devil is SLF?

Passengers aka Self Loading Freight

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 18:49:52 -0000, Dylan Smith
wrote:

A brute-force way of doing it would be to have two terrorist cells on
board. The first one begins the hijack. The sky marshall takes charge
and does his job *instantly identifying himself and where he keeps his
gun* to the second cell. The second cell then swing into action some
time later, first seizing control of the sky marshal and his weapon, and
then continuing with their plan. And now they are armed with a gun.

The good news is, the folks in charge of the US FAMs are way ahead of
you and I. This contingency has already been planned and trained,
along with a few hundred other scenarios we can't even imagine.

-J

Jack Davis
B-737


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We had a Northwest flight make an emergency landing here Tuesday because
someone tried to forcefully enter the cockpit. Turned out it was a
drunk woman who wanted to complain to the captain about being denied
more booze. She will remain in Billings recuperating for a lengthy
period of time after nearly being torn limb from limb. We were told by
the local cops that the FA's had to protect her from the passengers.



Jack Davis wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 18:49:52 -0000, Dylan Smith
wrote:


A brute-force way of doing it would be to have two terrorist cells on
board. The first one begins the hijack. The sky marshall takes charge
and does his job *instantly identifying himself and where he keeps his
gun* to the second cell. The second cell then swing into action some
time later, first seizing control of the sky marshal and his weapon, and
then continuing with their plan. And now they are armed with a gun.


The good news is, the folks in charge of the US FAMs are way ahead of
you and I. This contingency has already been planned and trained,
along with a few hundred other scenarios we can't even imagine.

-J

Jack Davis
B-737


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----