pilots refuse to fly with gun loons onboard

" Bogart " wrote in message ws.com...
On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 18:02:54 GMT, "Scout"
wrote:


Is that what you really got from what I wrote? At some point if the
SM is to take action he has to use some sort of force.

Agreed.

How do you
suggest he draw out a gun or other weapon and not be jumped by
passengers in the post 9/11 era without announcing he's the SM.

He simply acts. Quickly and decisively. Against the terrorists. It
won't take long for the passengers to figure it out once they regain
their senses from a handgun being fired in closed-in, close quarters.
However, there is a danger of the passengers jumping the air marshal
*before* shots are fired, and as the good guy's weapon is being
brought on target. This likelihood is directly proportional to the
stealth, speed and smoothness upon which the weapon is deployed. This
is done with training and practice. Lots of it.

At
that point he loses the advantage of surprise.

Not necessarily. If he makes his presence known a tad too
early...maybe. But see my above comments.

There hasn't been, to my knowledge, an incident involving a terrorist
attempt since 9/11 when a SM was on board. If ever there is, you have
the potential of having the SM attacked and subdued by the passengers
before he ever gets a chance to do anything.

There has been a case of a guy with a very weak bladder that decided
to try and rush the front restroom. Two air marshals deployed
unhindered and unmolested, cuffed the "offending person", and took him
into custody. The toilet remained safe and intact from any
"internally stored, biological fluids". Both officers perhaps
deployed early. One should have been able to handle the situation,
while the other remained incognito but alert. It was sort of an
embarrassment for all parties involved, but the officers actions were
not entirely unwarranted.

Perhaps, but very unlikely, since the people will know who the terrorists
are long before the SM takes action.

Really? You honestly think that now with SM's on board it hasn't
occurred to the hijackers to bring an extra man on for the purpose of
taking out the SM?

You don't think AMs know this? I don't know if they commonly travel
in pairs, but I do know that sometimes there is more than one on
board, and not necessarily sitting together. Also, some airlines
don't have a problem with law enforcement officers carrying while
enroute to their destinations. Where are *they* sitting?


So tell me, how often is an undercover officer jumped while trying to stop a
mugging? Seems people are pretty well able to tell who is the real threat,
and who is protecting everyone else.

You seem less than adept at figuring it out.

Sounds like empty emotional rhetoric to me.

Talk to a SM. There are whole lot of them who don't agree with you.

Cite please, that SMs feel they are more likely to be seen as a threat than
as an aid.

Let me guess, you're rap's resident nutcase? I didn't say SM's feel
they are more likely to be seen as a " threat than as an aid. ".
I'm telling you how they feel. It's from personal experience and
personal contact. Not every one is an amateur detective.

So what are you saying, then? That they feel like they are not needed
and feel like they aren't doing much good?

Teek

Feel free to argue your " theories " with someone else.

On 1 Jan 2004 20:44:46 -0800, (Teek) wrote:

" Bogart " wrote in message ws.com...

Let me guess, you're rap's resident nutcase? I didn't say SM's feel
they are more likely to be seen as a " threat than as an aid. ".
I'm telling you how they feel. It's from personal experience and
personal contact. Not every one is an amateur detective.

So what are you saying, then? That they feel like they are not needed
and feel like they aren't doing much good?

SM's I've talked with have expressed some genuine concerns about being
jumped by passengers in certain situations. That is all. They will
do their jobs and will do a good job, regardless of the fact _I_ don't
think they are necessary on domestic US flights.

Teek

Feel free to argue your " theories " with someone else.

" Bogart " wrote in message
s.com...
On 1 Jan 2004 20:44:46 -0800, (Teek) wrote:

" Bogart " wrote in message
ws.com...

Let me guess, you're rap's resident nutcase? I didn't say SM's feel
they are more likely to be seen as a " threat than as an aid. ".
I'm telling you how they feel. It's from personal experience and
personal contact. Not every one is an amateur detective.

So what are you saying, then? That they feel like they are not needed
and feel like they aren't doing much good?

SM's I've talked with have expressed some genuine concerns about being
jumped by passengers in certain situations. That is all. They will
do their jobs and will do a good job, regardless of the fact _I_ don't
think they are necessary on domestic US flights.

So how founded is this concern? Can you document even a single such event
taking place?

I mean we've had SM for decades, if this were going to happen, then isn't it
likely that it has already occurred at least once?

" Bogart " wrote in message ws.com...
On 1 Jan 2004 20:44:46 -0800, (Teek) wrote:

" Bogart " wrote in message ws.com...

Let me guess, you're rap's resident nutcase? I didn't say SM's feel
they are more likely to be seen as a " threat than as an aid. ".
I'm telling you how they feel. It's from personal experience and
personal contact. Not every one is an amateur detective.

So what are you saying, then? That they feel like they are not needed
and feel like they aren't doing much good?

SM's I've talked with have expressed some genuine concerns about being
jumped by passengers in certain situations. That is all. They will
do their jobs and will do a good job, regardless of the fact _I_ don't
think they are necessary on domestic US flights.

Fair enough. No one can predict or imagine all possible situations
and scenarios, and I'm confident the air marshals can think of a few
that I can't. Many factors come in to play in the use of air
marshals; political, strategic, tactical, etc. Your sky marshals seem
to be concerned with the tactical aspect of *certain* situations that
either they don't want to tell you about, or you don't want to blab it
all over the internet. No matter. They are well-trained and come
from a diverse cross-section of society, with differing opinions and
beliefs. That comes with any organization or group that doesn't
discriminate based on race, color, creed, sex, religion, or political
beliefs. This is as it should be. It also means I can't rule out the
marshals you've talked to are in the minority in their concerns, or if
it is fairly common.

Though I don't know a lot of the details of their training, it lasts
for about three months and their firearms course is rather
challenging. I don't think they sit around very much playing cards
and drinking beer during this time. The concerns should be addressed
in training. And since I haven't been through it, I can't say for
sure what the curriculum is.

I think they are necessary on domestic flights, and on certain
overseas flights coming into the U.S. Perhaps they don't need to be
on every flight, but they need to be on enough of them to possibly
prevent another hijacking.

Teek

"Teek" wrote in message
m...
" Bogart " wrote in message
ws.com...
On 1 Jan 2004 20:44:46 -0800, (Teek) wrote:

" Bogart " wrote in message
ws.com...

Let me guess, you're rap's resident nutcase? I didn't say SM's feel
they are more likely to be seen as a " threat than as an aid. ".
I'm telling you how they feel. It's from personal experience and
personal contact. Not every one is an amateur detective.

So what are you saying, then? That they feel like they are not needed
and feel like they aren't doing much good?

SM's I've talked with have expressed some genuine concerns about being
jumped by passengers in certain situations. That is all. They will
do their jobs and will do a good job, regardless of the fact _I_ don't
think they are necessary on domestic US flights.

Fair enough. No one can predict or imagine all possible situations
and scenarios, and I'm confident the air marshals can think of a few
that I can't. Many factors come in to play in the use of air
marshals; political, strategic, tactical, etc. Your sky marshals seem
to be concerned with the tactical aspect of *certain* situations that
either they don't want to tell you about, or you don't want to blab it
all over the internet. No matter. They are well-trained and come
from a diverse cross-section of society, with differing opinions and
beliefs. That comes with any organization or group that doesn't
discriminate based on race, color, creed, sex, religion, or political
beliefs. This is as it should be. It also means I can't rule out the
marshals you've talked to are in the minority in their concerns, or if
it is fairly common.

Though I don't know a lot of the details of their training, it lasts
for about three months and their firearms course is rather
challenging. I don't think they sit around very much playing cards
and drinking beer during this time. The concerns should be addressed
in training. And since I haven't been through it, I can't say for
sure what the curriculum is.

I think they are necessary on domestic flights, and on certain
overseas flights coming into the U.S. Perhaps they don't need to be
on every flight, but they need to be on enough of them to possibly
prevent another hijacking.


They train for the eventualities brought up.

-*MORT*-

"Teek" wrote in message
m...
" Bogart " wrote in message
ws.com...
On 1 Jan 2004 20:44:46 -0800, (Teek) wrote:

" Bogart " wrote in message
ws.com...

Let me guess, you're rap's resident nutcase? I didn't say SM's feel
they are more likely to be seen as a " threat than as an aid. ".
I'm telling you how they feel. It's from personal experience and
personal contact. Not every one is an amateur detective.

So what are you saying, then? That they feel like they are not needed
and feel like they aren't doing much good?

SM's I've talked with have expressed some genuine concerns about being
jumped by passengers in certain situations. That is all. They will
do their jobs and will do a good job, regardless of the fact _I_ don't
think they are necessary on domestic US flights.

Fair enough. No one can predict or imagine all possible situations
and scenarios, and I'm confident the air marshals can think of a few
that I can't. Many factors come in to play in the use of air
marshals; political, strategic, tactical, etc. Your sky marshals seem
to be concerned with the tactical aspect of *certain* situations that
either they don't want to tell you about, or you don't want to blab it
all over the internet. No matter. They are well-trained and come
from a diverse cross-section of society, with differing opinions and
beliefs.

Really? More likely they are carefully selected to fit a particular type.